| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Bill D. |
Posted - Apr 29 2012 : 20:04:27
"
“When the maritime public uses radios, flares, lifejackets, and other safety equipment, the Coast Guard is able to respond swiftly to rescue them,” Petty Officer 1st Class Hillary Herbst, Sector Mobile watchstander.
"
http://blog.al.com/live/2012/04/coast_guard_rescues_6_near_per.html |
| 46 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| PascalG |
Posted - May 05 2012 : 12:51:50
Not talking rules, regUlations or licensing but VOLUNTARY COURTESY vessel safety checks
Why bother with the whole program since the standards are so low! Don't you agree that it should be the first place where boaters should be made aware of minimum safety standards ? |
| Shadowcruzr |
Posted - May 05 2012 : 11:59:55
quote:
Originally posted by PascalG
But why is nothing being done about educating the average boater? It s not even about costs anymore, as the equipment cost less than the average dockside lunch for a family of 4!
What will it take for the USCG / USCG Aux to raise the VSC standards and require (not just recommend) what most of us consider to be basic safety equipment?
We had that discussion here before. Nobody wanted anymore rules and regs and absolutely no licensing. Boating was the last bastion of total freedom, ill prepared boaters or not... |
| bobalong |
Posted - May 05 2012 : 09:01:19
quote:
Originally posted by PascalG
This thread is about being ready, not about which system is best, and being ready means having a number of tools to get help depending on where you are and the nature of your emergency. In all places I ve been, from Texas to new England, everytime i heard someone calling a pan pan or mayday whether for a fire, failed engine, being aground or taking on water, it was the USCG who responded to the call, not local LEO.
Now on some lake or river inland, it may be the locals in that case a 911 call may be a good option
But again it s all about having the tools and picking the best one.
-------------------------------------------
That statement says it all. |
| RussR |
Posted - May 04 2012 : 18:22:08
If you need help ... have & use the appropriate tool - the more the better!
But listening to channel 16 every single day the last couple of years, from New England to Florida,the Coast Guard needs a VERY serious upgrade in their radio procedures. Their multi-million dollar upgrade in equipment improved their transmission & receiving TEN-fold ... but otherwise they could certainly learn a lot from training similar to 911 centers. Their marbles-in-the-mouth rambling transmissions, now pre-recorded announcements which repeat endlessly for days(even if recorded with loud phones & buzzers in the background, or out-of-date information), their annoucements with ONLY lat & long (not even a general area description), etc. could EASILY be improved. I could go on & on about some I've heard, but they sometimes sounded like a Saturday Night Live skit! No ... I'm NOT damming the Coast Guard - I'm just saying they could do a MUCH better job with procedures to make them more practical & helpful. Going back to the stated issue ...
- If 20 miles offshore in a Mayday situation, OBVIOUSLY use the VHF first. The Coast Guard, SeaTow/BoatUS & fellow boaters are your first line.
- If within an active coastal boating community with a medical, fire, collision, sinking or a near-shore emergency, I would call 911 first (or ideally simultaneously) to activate local PD & city/town fire/rescue - you're talking a 3 - 4 minute phone call with quick response in SOME areas - if you only talk with the Coast Guard, they might not alert these local resources for some time.
In many areas, Sea Tow/BoatUS will respond instantly on the radio & arrive in just 5 to 30 minutes. I heard one call when a guy had to get off the radio with the Coast Guard during their 30+ questions, as Sea Tow had already pulled up!
Have as many options available to you & use them according to your location & circumstances. |
| PascalG |
Posted - May 04 2012 : 11:51:03
But why is nothing being done about educating the average boater? It s not even about costs anymore, as the equipment cost less than the average dockside lunch for a family of 4!
What will it take for the USCG / USCG Aux to raise the VSC standards and require (not just recommend) what most of us consider to be basic safety equipment? |
| Shadowcruzr |
Posted - May 04 2012 : 11:31:45
Who do these cell phone apps broadcast to? Does the receiver get an alarm or some kind of indication, ie: VHF Radio can be heard throughtout the booth/commcen?
I think the basic problem is a less than optimally educated and outfitted boating public.
|
| PascalG |
Posted - May 03 2012 : 17:46:35
This thread is about being ready, not about which system is best, and being ready means having a number of tools to get help depending on where you are and the nature of your emergency. In all places I ve been, from Texas to new England, everytime i heard someone calling a pan pan or mayday whether for a fire, failed engine, being aground or taking on water, it was the USCG who responded to the call, not local LEO.
Now on some lake or river inland, it may be the locals in that case a 911 call may be a good option
But again it s all about having the tools and picking the best one.
|
| Radioactive |
Posted - May 03 2012 : 17:14:49
"People who do not equip their boat with "the usual safety equipment" should use what ever they have on hand." -- Radioactive
--> GeeBee: Yes. When the great random number generator in the sky decides that it is your turn to play the game, you use whatever you can.
But, pilot or captain, it is in your best interests to prepare those handy items and place them in appropriate locations, so that when "the game begins" you will be ready to play. The point is, yes, I can play golf with a pool cue, but using a golf club is a better plan. |
| getakey |
Posted - May 03 2012 : 17:09:42
I agree
I was only voting for the more options, not which is best. As you say, best is relative to the situation |
| GeeBee |
Posted - May 03 2012 : 17:07:13
Guys, I think you are all cutting off your noses here. Every system has its strengths and faults. You carry multiple system so you can select the one most appropriate and sometimes, the modality may be decided for you. For instance, you may find yourself without electrical power, and the portable VHF out of reach. In that case, it may be that your decision has been made for you. In another, the vessel 300 yards off your port would be preferable to calling land based units. Arguing about which is best is like arguing will the airplane fly better on the left or right engine. When an engine quits, you love the one you're with and your diversion is based upon how many paths of escape you allow yourself. More options is obviously better.
|
| Radioactive |
Posted - May 03 2012 : 16:58:42
Allowing that cellphone coverage is "only" available inshore or near coastal, very often it will not be the USCG who actually is the best/quickest responder. In fact, most "inland" areas are not covered by the USCG. Sheriff's patrol, Wildlife and fisheries, etc are the usual responders. Calling the USCG introduces the same third -party issues you are concerned with.
I just don't see where "an app" ( which many will not have, just like they don't have flares or VHF ) will resolve the issue. A passenger can call 911, which they have "built-in", and not only are they aware of it, but they know how/why it is used. That same passenger my not even be aware of the presence of the app.
Sorry, I just don't see it. |
| getakey |
Posted - May 03 2012 : 16:33:46
+1 |
| PascalG |
Posted - May 03 2012 : 16:17:19
I would love to believe that 911 operators will quickly and accurately relay the information to the USCG in a way that will get the boat rolling. Somehow I m just wondering if using a middle man isn't going to create a delay...
Also, when things are going downhill as fast as they can on a boat it s a lot more difficult and it takes a lot longer to make a phone call, explain a 911 operator (who is probably totally unfamiliar with boats) the nature of the emergency , what you need etc... If it s raining chances are your phone will get wet, or if you re in the drink your chances of getting the word out with a couple of taps are a lot higher than staying on for 5 or 10 minutes and losing battery life in the process
I have heard way too many VHF calls to the USCG where it took 5' to relay the information and answering all the questions...I d rather use these 5' to assist passengers, grabbing everything I need, tending pumps, plugging the leak, or whatever... |
| Radioactive |
Posted - May 03 2012 : 15:59:13
Pascal, parking the rest of my discussion for a while, why do you need an app?
You got a cellphone, just dial 911. ( Unless you blocked it ) Cellphones automatically send GPS info to the 911 center, they will relay the data to the most appropriate response center ( which might not be USCG ).
I do not understand the problem. |
| PascalG |
Posted - May 03 2012 : 15:03:47
Actually. Yes the USCG doesnt even require a VHF, a GPS, charts, anchors before telling a new boater that their boat is safe and apply a shiny new VSC decal stating this...
Look, I wish there were accurate equipment data but I doubt even 50% of small boats have a portable back up VHF so dont tell me any effort is made to educate boaters to carry minimum equipment |
| Shadowcruzr |
Posted - May 03 2012 : 14:10:26
So we advocate boaters not properly outfitting their boats? I always had a handheld fully charged in the seat right behind me and i always had reference points in mind. Of course i was trained to do that as part of my coxswain situational awareness training. But i guess it is easier to spend money on new systems than it is to train boat drivers.
And poopoo on that sailor that didnt have a properly equipped ditch bag. |
| Dive1 |
Posted - May 03 2012 : 12:39:26
I have the Boat US app for Android and with one touch it will call BoatUS and send Log and Lat which is displayed on the front of the app. |
| PascalG |
Posted - May 03 2012 : 09:50:28
Obviously Bill but most boats do not have an Epirb or a even portable. So instead of wasting hours searching with minimal information, give me one good reason not to use existing working low cost technology?
10nm is plenty of coverage as most boats don't go that far offshore anyway... |
| Billylll |
Posted - May 03 2012 : 09:18:29
10 miles is about the the limit for cellphones with a clear line of site to the tower. In the old analog cell days the range was greater but the phones were either fixed or bag phones and they ran 3 watts.
I'll take an EPIRB and a charged VHF portable any day over a cellphone.
Bill |
| PascalG |
Posted - May 03 2012 : 08:59:53
Mike
Once the boat and the AIS xmitter is on the bottom, it s not going to do any good...when in range of cell towers (typically within 10nm) a smart phone can transmit AiS data to web based AIS systems. All it takes is a smart phone in a dry bag which most boaters carry these days. Right now if you go to MarineTraffic.com and search for vessel name Charmer, in seconds you will get an accurate position of the boat being sent in from my old phone...
Again I m not suggesting ditching DSC VHF, EPIRBs, and portables, but smart phones are almost on every boat and can be another tool
A few months back, there was a story about a well known French offshore sailor who fell overboard at night off corsica. She had a phone in dry bag tucked away in a pocket and was rescued... |
| November Charlie |
Posted - May 02 2012 : 21:30:29
Granted, if the VHF is gone with the boat, it does no good. But what I was referring to was not so much the initial notification, but actually locating and rescue. There's no way nav'ing to a Lat/Long derived from a smartphone is going to be more accurate than running down a DF. There's a reason I never, EVER steer directly on a signal.
And I have it from a reliable source they WOULD think to check their AIS receiver and monitor 121.5 for an EPIRB - something about having a Lat/Long/Brg/Distance versus searching all night and missing breakfast. Only catch with the AIS receiver is that without another AIS transceiver transmitting the vsl name, it would be nothing but an MMSI. |
| Radioactive |
Posted - May 02 2012 : 20:25:48
<< If you filed a float plan, they will know that you carry a phone, and will call you... >> |
| PascalG |
Posted - May 02 2012 : 19:37:11
Yeah but when that VHF is 20' Below the surface, you re not going to get a fix!!
On the other hand that iPhone in a $20 dry bag/box tucked in a pocket can send an accurate position report that will be more accurate than than a DF fix!!
I m not saying people shouldn't have DSC enabled VHF and a portable has a back up but fact is most do not, especially small open boats which are the most likely to get in trouble...
Funny thing is that it s all there already. Just about any boat with an MMSI number can send in its position to AIS services like Marine Traffic with a smart phone and be accurately tracked from any smart phone.
I just hope that if i ever call a mayday and then loose contact with USCG, they will think about checking MarineTraffic.com to find me if I m unconscious in the raft and unable to use the portable. Somehow i dont think they will think about it...
|
| November Charlie |
Posted - May 02 2012 : 19:04:18
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowcruzr
How can you relay on cell phones? I'm 7 miles from the nearest tower and i get spotty service. You expect a cell phone to work after getting dunked off shore? Spend a $100 bucks and get a waterproof handheld VHF that you can tie to your GPS and grab at the last minute that will have DSC capabilities. 5 watt hand held better than 200you milliwatt phone, kimosabi...
Makes life easier for the people trying to find you, too - I can DF a VHF or 121.5 signal, I can't DF a cell phone. |
| Shadowcruzr |
Posted - May 02 2012 : 17:33:47
How can you relay on cell phones? I'm 7 miles from the nearest tower and i get spotty service. You expect a cell phone to work after getting dunked off shore? Spend a $100 bucks and get a waterproof handheld VHF that you can tie to your GPS and grab at the last minute that will have DSC capabilities. 5 watt hand held better than 200you milliwatt phone, kimosabi... |
| giolic |
Posted - May 02 2012 : 13:05:01
Hopefully cell phones and other conveniences that are common today will be utilized |
| Shadowcruzr |
Posted - May 02 2012 : 11:54:53
Why do we make people take classes to learn how to drive a car and get a license and carry 3 pax. We make them take classes to learn how to fly an airplane and get a license and carry 3 pax. We do a credit check and make sure they have a smart phone to go drive a boat with 12 pax. Makes a lot of sense to me.
Hey everyone I will come get you if you call me on this device.
Why didnt you come get me?
You didnt call me on this device.
But I had another device.
And thats my problem because??? |
| Hyperfishing |
Posted - May 01 2012 : 15:22:35
"My point is that the USCG has kept up with the times, and that, a boat not in inland waters needs and should use, the VHF as their primary device."
Of course, we all agree with that.
|
| Radioactive |
Posted - May 01 2012 : 15:18:43
Pascal, we can make a rather long list of "but what if that fails".
The point is that using a cellphone ( use 911 ) will already provide a call for help w/ GPS.
So will a properly installed VHF w/ DSC.
Cellphones fail, too, usually when soaked in salt water.
My point is that the USCG has kept up with the times, and that, a boat not in inland waters needs and should use, the VHF as their primary device.
People who do not equip their boat with "the usual safety equipment" should use what ever they have on hand.
I still believe that a VHF distress call will provide the most assistance possible to an incident, in the shortest time possible, due to notification of "the neighbors" of the distress. |
| Hyperfishing |
Posted - May 01 2012 : 15:08:57
Pascal, SHHHHH! You need to invent the app., then buy a Star Clipper ship for your next sailboat.
It is a great idea. |
| PascalG |
Posted - May 01 2012 : 14:58:58
Again, how many small boats have a DSC connected VHF, and what happens when your elevtricals are out due to a fire, flooded ER, lighting strike or sudden capsize (small boat)?
|
| Radioactive |
Posted - May 01 2012 : 14:51:54
"A tap on a smart phone could have easily send the position, name of the boat and hull color etc. "
VHF DSC? Press the "panic" button. |
| PascalG |
Posted - May 01 2012 : 14:42:50
"towboats etc would have launched a night search 40 miles or so in the wrong direction."
... Which is why having a simple system where one tap on a smart phone will send lat/Lon and vessel data would be very useful with minimal cost!
|
| Hyperfishing |
Posted - May 01 2012 : 12:17:52
"You'd probably be surprised how often people give incorrect geographical references. The Lat/Long thing as not as frivolous as it may seem."
Yes, I assisted some distressed boaters at night, who arrived at the wrong town, on the wrong side of the bay from where they thought they were.
Since they had one line on the cabin cruiser to tie up, and had just bought the new boat with next to no knowledge of boating, I was astounded they had not grounded on the numerous sandbars. If they had grounded and placed a general VHF "help, help", towboats etc would have launched a night search 40 miles or so in the wrong direction. Good luck getting lat and long numbers from that crew. |
| Thudpucker |
Posted - Apr 30 2012 : 23:38:08
Fishing, with my head down, working and keeping two kids working, I really never knew exactly where I was. Just kinda where.
I realized if I Called for help, I'd have to speak "Coast Guard" to let them know where I was.
All I could manage was "miles off the (point) and South or west of (point) so with that in mind, I had a buoy loosely tied to the top of the cabin with some stuff tied on for ditching. But no water proof portable radio. I couldn't afford it at the time.
I practiced talking on the radio. The kids thought I was nuts! |
| dancerscap |
Posted - Apr 30 2012 : 11:43:34
quote:
Originally posted by PascalG
Is your handheld submersible and floating? Is it always charged? Is it accessible even if the boat is on fire? On a small boat is it secured to make sure it s not washed away if you get swamped in an inlet?
Yes,yes,yes,and yes. Additionally it is DSC capable, and at the helm on the charger or if off the boat on my belt. |
| November Charlie |
Posted - Apr 30 2012 : 09:59:36
quote:
Originally posted by PascalG
Bill
The fact is that when things go south on a boat, you will have multiple gps equipped smartphones vs a single fixed VHF which is likely to fail pretty quickly. A couple of taps and the alert can go out with a precise location instead of "we re a few miles off government cut"
I ve heard many emergency calls over the years, and the script followed by the USCG needs some serious updating. When a boater calls with an emergency and gives an exact precise location, don't waste time asking for a GPS fix! A few weeks ago, I heard a small boat call sector MIA asking for medical assistance following a collision. The guy clearly said a 100 yards off the sand bar by the key Biscayne YC. Yet, sector wasted time insisting on a gps fix... Imagine the scene on the small boat with an injured bleeding passenger and an operator trying to talk to the CG while taking care of the injured having to read lat and Lon?
A tap on a smart phone could have easily send the position, name of the boat and hull color etc.
Again not a replacement for VHF but another tool in the box which would speeds up and instantly provide critical info
You'd probably be surprised how often people give incorrect geographical references. The Lat/Long thing as not as frivolous as it may seem. |
| GeeBee |
Posted - Apr 30 2012 : 09:27:13
I think what we are talking about is resources. Every resource has its limitations, and its strengths. Having multiple resources increases the chances of successful outcomes. For instance when I go "uplake" on my PWC I carry both a cell phone, and a portable VHF, smoke, flares and a light beacon on my PFD. Identifying and applying the correct resource to the given situation is the most important thing one involved can do. If I get thrown for instance, and cannot reboard the PWC, the light beacon and my VHF is my resource. If I break down, on a week day, the cell phone might be the better resource. Resources and applications is the name of the game.
|
| PascalG |
Posted - Apr 30 2012 : 09:25:26
Is your handheld submersible and floating? Is it always charged? Is it accessible even if the boat is on fire? On a small boat is it secured to make sure it s not washed away if you get swamped in an inlet? |
| JAYROCK |
Posted - Apr 30 2012 : 08:33:27
I have a handheld VHF for a backup! Or in case by dockmates main vhf is on the fritz! |
| PascalG |
Posted - Apr 30 2012 : 07:48:23
Bill
The fact is that when things go south on a boat, you will have multiple gps equipped smartphones vs a single fixed VHF which is likely to fail pretty quickly. A couple of taps and the alert can go out with a precise location instead of "we re a few miles off government cut"
I ve heard many emergency calls over the years, and the script followed by the USCG needs some serious updating. When a boater calls with an emergency and gives an exact precise location, don't waste time asking for a GPS fix! A few weeks ago, I heard a small boat call sector MIA asking for medical assistance following a collision. The guy clearly said a 100 yards off the sand bar by the key Biscayne YC. Yet, sector wasted time insisting on a gps fix... Imagine the scene on the small boat with an injured bleeding passenger and an operator trying to talk to the CG while taking care of the injured having to read lat and Lon?
A tap on a smart phone could have easily send the position, name of the boat and hull color etc.
Again not a replacement for VHF but another tool in the box which would speeds up and instantly provide critical info
|
| gcolton |
Posted - Apr 30 2012 : 05:36:47
quote:
Originally posted by Radioactive
PascalG, there are two really good reasons why a cellphone is only an "adjunct" to safety items vs a primary device:
a) ( As you stated ) "For inshore/near-shore use only" VHF can be used further offshore than cellphone.
b) Cellphone is fine for alerting one specific recipient, but VHF is a "party line". and a MAYDAY call can be heard by all vessels in the area of the incident. ie: Those most likely to respond rapidly are the ones most likely to hear the call.
--
I have no problem if you wish to include a cellphone in your list of things to do when things go south, but it should not be considered the primary, or first used, device.
I agree that it should not by the "primary" device, but it should be included in the Coast Guards capabilities. The cell phone is just too prominent in today's society not be be included.
There was an article on this in one of the boating magazines that I get. There were discussing the major communications update the Coast Guard completed and wondering why cell phones were not integrated.
Cell phones are generally good out to 25 miles. I suspect that a large portion of the accidents are within this range.
George |
| Radioactive |
Posted - Apr 29 2012 : 22:40:20
PascalG, there are two really good reasons why a cellphone is only an "adjunct" to safety items vs a primary device:
a) ( As you stated ) "For inshore/near-shore use only" VHF can be used further offshore than cellphone.
b) Cellphone is fine for alerting one specific recipient, but VHF is a "party line". and a MAYDAY call can be heard by all vessels in the area of the incident. ie: Those most likely to respond rapidly are the ones most likely to hear the call.
--
I have no problem if you wish to include a cellphone in your list of things to do when things go south, but it should not be considered the primary, or first used, device. |
| Hyperfishing |
Posted - Apr 29 2012 : 22:34:52
Good idea Pascal. We wear Sospenders at all times in the boat, and carry a ditch bag in the cockpit with us. The ditch bag contains a waterproof portable VHF radio, and we carry the VHF with us when Kayaking. When we traveled offshore to Nantucket or even Block Island, we also carried a foam surfboard on top, ready for immediate release. |
| November Charlie |
Posted - Apr 29 2012 : 22:33:47
quote:
Originally posted by PascalG
This is obviously correct but... I d say that it s about time the USCG starts using newer technology. I read an interesting comment in a rescue story last week which really made this point cristal clear: "the boat radio didn't work but everyone on board had a smart phone capable of transmitting a distress signal with GOS position"
Let a face it, in an emergency you can not be sure your VHF will work. Whether you re dealing with a fire or a sinking boats, the batteries and the wiring to the VHF are the weak link. A smart phone in a dry bag will remain handy and usable.
Yes, There should be an app for that... A simple app which would send the vessel position and which the CG could receive... Sure it won't work if you are 15nm offshore but small boats which are less likely to have a good VHF with reliable power or an epirb. Not saying it should replace VHF, flares and EPIRBs but it would save lives and SAR costs
I located one probably 7 or 8 years ago via their cell phone and a helpful 911 operator that had the posn pop up right on her console. Was one of those "how should I know where we are. We put the boat in at the ramp near the rental cottage this morning and headed out. No, we don't know what ramp, or what town, or what part of the Cape..." |
| PascalG |
Posted - Apr 29 2012 : 22:11:43
This is obviously correct but... I d say that it s about time the USCG starts using newer technology. I read an interesting comment in a rescue story last week which really made this point cristal clear: "the boat radio didn't work but everyone on board had a smart phone capable of transmitting a distress signal with GOS position"
Let a face it, in an emergency you can not be sure your VHF will work. Whether you re dealing with a fire or a sinking boats, the batteries and the wiring to the VHF are the weak link. A smart phone in a dry bag will remain handy and usable.
Yes, There should be an app for that... A simple app which would send the vessel position and which the CG could receive... Sure it won't work if you are 15nm offshore but small boats which are less likely to have a good VHF with reliable power or an epirb. Not saying it should replace VHF, flares and EPIRBs but it would save lives and SAR costs
|
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