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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kevdon22 |
Posted - May 19 2012 : 17:57:34
http://www.hydrocarbonprocessing.com/Article/3029925/Channel/194955/E15-ethanol-fuel-can-damage-engines-study.html
E15 ethanol fuel can damage auto engines - study
05.16.2012 |
Compared with typical gasoline, issues include damaged valves and valve seats, misfires, lower performance, engine damage, poor fuel economy and increased emissions."
Keywords:
"Auto repair costs for consumers could rise due to adverse effects of fuel containing 15% ethanol blends (E15), according to new results from a two-year study on engine durability."
"The study was conducted by FEV, a longtime consultant to the US Environmental Protection Agency, on behalf of the Coordinating Research Council (CRC)."
"The CRC study released Wednesday showed adverse results from E15 use in certain popular, high-volume models of cars, its authors said."
"Problems included damaged valves and valve seats, which can lead to loss of compression and power, diminished vehicle performance, misfires, engine damage, as well as poor fuel economy and increased emissions."
“Clearly many vehicles on the road today are at risk of harm from E15. The unknowns concern us greatly, since only a fraction of vehicles have been tested to determine their tolerance to E15,” said Mitch Bainwol, CEO of the Auto Alliance trade group."
“Automakers did not build these vehicles to handle the more corrosive E15 fuel. That’s why we urged EPA to wait for the results of further testing.”
"The potential costs to consumers are significant, the study says. The most likely repair would be cylinder head replacement, which costs from $2000-4000 for single cylinder head engines and twice as much for V-type engines."
"EPA’s decision was based largely on a DOE study of the effects of E15 on durability of catalytic converters, the primary pollution control system in a vehicle
EPA did not undertake or wait to consider the results of this engine durability test, or for other E15 related research still underway, the groups allege.
The CRC study took duplicates of eight different vehicle model engines spanning 2001-2009 model years. All 16 vehicles were tested over a 500-hour durability cycle corresponding to about 100,000 miles of vehicle usage, the authors said."
I guess the EPA care about your catalytic converter, but not your engine?
Kevdon
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| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Kevdon22 |
Posted - May 21 2012 : 20:27:46
Absolute,
This study indicates that some road vehicles (which EPA approve for E 15) will likely be damaged with E 15 over the long haul. It's not just rubber hoses,etc.
"Compared with typical gasoline, issues include damaged valves and valve seats, misfires, lower performance, engine damage, poor fuel economy and increased emissions."
"The study was conducted by FEV, a longtime consultant to the US Environmental Protection Agency, on behalf of the Coordinating Research Council (CRC)."
"The CRC Engine Durability study took duplicates of eight different vehicle model engines spanning 2001-2009 model years. All 16 vehicles were tested over a 500-hour durability cycle corresponding to about 100,000 miles of vehicle usage. A range of engine operating parameters was monitored during the test, including cylinder compression, valve wear, valve leakage, emissions and emissions control system diagnostics. Two of the engines tested on E15 had mechanical damage. Another engine showed increased tailpipe emissions beyond the allowable limit." That's a high failure rate!!
"The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers is a trade association of 12 car and light truck manufacturers including BMW Group, Chrysler Group LLC, Ford Motor Company, General Motors, Jaguar Land Rover, Mazda, Mercedes-Benz USA, Mitsubishi Motors, Porsche, Toyota, Volkswagen and Volvo. For more information, visit www.autoalliance.org."
Kevdon |
| Billylll |
Posted - May 21 2012 : 15:02:03
Can't find a single gas station either let alone a marina in NJ that sells anything but E-10. A limited number sell E85. I have 2 Flex fuel vehicles and have never seen E85 within 40 miles of my home.
Bill |
| GeeBee |
Posted - May 21 2012 : 14:31:18
I would still be interested if there is a New Jersey statute or if marinas are taking the easy way out on fuel deliveries. Might be worth an investigation.
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| absolute |
Posted - May 21 2012 : 13:48:04
E15 is not intended for marine, motorcycle, lawnmowers, etc., only certain road driven vehicles. The EPA is aware that there are those that cannot read the placards at the pumps and will miss-use the fuel.
Really no need to get the panties in a bunch Guys. |
| bobalong |
Posted - May 21 2012 : 09:02:41
Most of our marina's are straight gas, some with ValvTect additive. |
| Billylll |
Posted - May 21 2012 : 08:03:48
I have not been able to find a single marina in NJ offering straight Gasoline. I have been looking for 5 years on line and in real life.
Bill |
| GeeBee |
Posted - May 21 2012 : 07:35:29
Is it illegal for a marina to sell ethanol free gas in New Jersey? My understanding is as long as it is used for marine or aviation use it is legal to dispense ethanol free gasoline under Federal law. Unless New Jersey has a law against it, all your marina has to do is sign some certifications, and the tanker can deliver ethanol free gasoline. Since it has to be mixed at the tanker fill it is easy for the tank farm to dispense ethanol free gasoline.
I have to say, on Lanier I credit the MarineMax folks with leading the way on ethanol free gasoline. They did it first and everyone else soon followed.
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| KiDa |
Posted - May 20 2012 : 16:47:26
quote:
[i]...and other than sucking up a bit more fuel...
At one gallon per mile, I don't want to be sucking up a bit more fuel.
As an aside, corn producers (the current major source of ethanol) are required to submit the 1st "X" (I can't recall "X") to ethanol production. Does wonders for the cost of food. One bad year and it's over. |
| Billylll |
Posted - May 20 2012 : 13:23:19
I can see E-15 damaging the Evap system in most modern cars.
Bill |
| comptiger5000 |
Posted - May 20 2012 : 11:23:44
Probably not. However, as long as any and all rubber parts and seals in the system are upgraded to handle higher ethanol content, and carbs are re-tuned for E15, it should work acceptably in most engines. Issues with valve seats, misfires, etc, would be from running E15 in an engine that wasn't re-tuned for it, causing it to run lean.
As a test case, about a month ago, I did an ethanol experiment in my Jeep (1998, so not flex-fuel or anything). I've replaced the fuel injectors and a few other parts of the system with different parts, so other than the in-tank pump and such (which is rated for E10), everything can handle higher ethanol blends. I mixed E10 and E85 to get a blend of about E40 (which was getting close to the limits of the computer's tuning to add extra fuel without me needing to change any settings), and other than sucking up a bit more fuel, it ran as well or better than on E10.
IOW, if an engine is properly tuned for E15 (if and when they force it on us), it should run fine, it's simply a matter of making sure any rubber bits in the fuel system can handle it without failing. |
| Kevdon22 |
Posted - May 20 2012 : 10:57:51
Marine applications aside, E 15 will also destroy quite a few auto applications according to the recently completed test reported.
It seems that the EPA jumpted the gun before the more comprehensive tests were completed.
The earlier tests they depended upon to allow E 15 only related to the impact on the catalytic converter.
Does anuone think that the EPA cares about the marine applications at all? |
| Jim D |
Posted - May 20 2012 : 10:23:25
I have looked for real gasoline in NJ with no success. Since E10 was introduced in NJ, I have had to replace both fuel pumps and all fuel lines in my Chris Craft. |
| Billylll |
Posted - May 20 2012 : 09:13:40
I wish the option was available in New Jersey. I don't think there is a single Marina in NJ by law that can sell straight gasoline only the Ethenol blends.
Someone correct me if I am wrong.
Bill |
| GeeBee |
Posted - May 20 2012 : 09:02:19
Just about every marina on Lake Lanier sells NON-Ethanol fuel, most exclusively.
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| Billylll |
Posted - May 19 2012 : 23:02:10
If your marina has is selling a blend equivelant to E20 or E25 that is against the law. Call the State weights and measurements division.
15% Ethanol will be a disaster in medium to larger gas boats.
Couple E15, the price for junk fuel and the economy and it's almost impossible to sell a medium to larger gas boat.
FWIW my 2007-08 Merc 8.1L HO manual specifically limits Ethanol blends to E-10.
Bill |
| littlebookworm |
Posted - May 19 2012 : 22:18:55
Why is your marine dock carrying anything other than 10%? Marine engines were specifically exempted from the federal regulations on 15%+ ethanol. It's time for the boaters who use that gas dock to stop using that dock and to complain and report them to the authorities. Anything above 10% ethanol is disaster for marine engines even 10% isn't too great. Hy |
| Gregory S |
Posted - May 19 2012 : 20:20:09
My Crusaders state the same thing, David. |
| BoatCrazy |
Posted - May 19 2012 : 20:01:03
Havent had a problem with it in the motor yet, but I have had a HUGE 3 season problem of ethanol destroying fuel pumps.
Genset on my boat went thru 12 fuel pumps in 3 seasons. Apparently all fuel pumps are rated for 10% ethanol, and the ethanal at marine gas docks is actually rate 20-25% ethanol..
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| KiDa |
Posted - May 19 2012 : 19:49:16
My Merc warranty is SPECIFIC! Max 10% ethanol. Anything more voids the warranty.
FWIW, 10% to 15% is a 50% jump in ethanol content regardless of what anyone tells you. |
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