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 Crusader 350 exhaust manifold & elbow replacement
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Author Previous Topic: Garmin transducer install. paperwork Topic Next Topic: Switch for main and auxiliary fuel tanks.  

87 cruisers

RO# 19273

Posted - Mar 03 2008 :  12:55:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I ordered new manifolds and elbows (my installation doesn't have risers) along with installation parts (blockoff plates, gaskets, etc) from BoatFix. I can't say enough good things about the outstanding service - 300# of cast iron delivered in less than 48 hours! I think I have everything lined up, even found a 12-point ratcheting box-end wrench that fits in the elbow recesses (why does Osco put 12-pt bolts on the elbows?). Picked up some 3/8"-16 all thread to make up the safety studs for removing & installing the manifolds. The guy I spoke to at BoatFix (George?) said to put a very light coat of Permatex ultra black on the gaskets & fasteners. I noticed that the manifold drain plugs (brass or bronze) go in easily but the pipe plugs and inlet/outlet fittings don't. I've run them in & out several times, cleaning out the swarf each time, so that they now seat at least 1/2 the threads into the hole. My existing installation is the same, so I guess this is the norm.
I do have a couple of questions...is there by chance an online account (with pictures) of the procedures? any hints & tips from those of you who've done this task? Have I missed any obvious gotchas?
Charlie

Homeport: Solomons, MD

muddkatt

RO# 27304

Posted - Mar 03 2008 :  19:49:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Make sure the surface is clean on the head.
Torque the manifolds starting with the center two bolts and work out in each direction.
Change the spark plugs while the manifolds are off. If you have a rusted plug, that is the time to tackle it.
Check for leaks......thats about all I can think of.



1997 Wellcraft Eclipse 2400S
5.7 Volvo Penta tweaked to 330HP
DP-S DuoProp w/F6 props
FWC system by Monitor Products

Homeport: Tarpon Springs, Fl. Go to Top of Page

cmariner32

RO# 7269

Posted - Mar 03 2008 :  23:22:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's definatly a 2 man job. You also need to retorque the manifold bolts and elbow bolts after letting the engine come up to temperature. Bolts should even be checked a few weeks after running. The permatex ultra black is necessary if you want a long lasting seal between the surfaces-pay no attention to the note that come with the manifolds saying to install dry. The ratcheting box wrench is the only way to get into the tight spots and tighten the bolts properly. Good luck!

The only thing that works on an old boat.....is the Owner.

Homeport: Clearwater/St. Pete Florida Go to Top of Page

87 cruisers

RO# 19273

Posted - Mar 04 2008 :  07:56:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Another (well, related) question has come to mind. If I manage to get everything sealed up properly, shouldn't the new FWC manifolds last through a few RWC elbow replacements?
Charlie



Homeport: Solomons, MD Go to Top of Page

liveonlake

RO# 10995

Posted - Mar 04 2008 :  08:08:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Go the hardware store and get two bolts that are longer than you need. 2-3 inches longer. Cut the head off these bolts. Hand thread them into the block then use locking pliers to make sure they are in deep enough. Slide the manifold onto these bolts. This will make putting the manifolds back on very easy. After you have a few of the regular bolts installed you can remove the longer bolts. This will probably save you a couple of broken spark plugs.


Homeport: Go to Top of Page

87 cruisers

RO# 19273

Posted - Mar 04 2008 :  08:24:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by liveonlake

Go the hardware store and get two bolts that are longer than you need. 2-3 inches longer. Cut the head off these bolts. Hand thread them into the block then use locking pliers to make sure they are in deep enough. Slide the manifold onto these bolts. This will make putting the manifolds back on very easy. After you have a few of the regular bolts installed you can remove the longer bolts. This will probably save you a couple of broken spark plugs.


I bought a 2' length of 3/8"-16 allthread and a bag of jam nuts - total damage was ~$4. I plan to cut off a pair of lengths about 8" (the manifold bolts are ~ 6") and use as you describe. Dunno how many versions of manifolds exist, but both the old and new in my application have only 4 mounting bolts. I plan to remove the two outside bolts and replace with the allthread before removing the two inside bolts. I'll reverse the sequence when putting on the new manifolds :-)
Charlie



Homeport: Solomons, MD Go to Top of Page

muddkatt

RO# 27304

Posted - Mar 04 2008 :  08:50:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 87 cruisers

Another (well, related) question has come to mind. If I manage to get everything sealed up properly, shouldn't the new FWC manifolds last through a few RWC elbow replacements?
Charlie

The life span of FWC manifolds is about 20 years. So yes, the risers/elbows that are RWC will last 3-5 years and you will change several sets before needing to change the entire system again. In all reality, with a 20 year old engine, the FWC manifolds will probably outlast the engine.



1997 Wellcraft Eclipse 2400S
5.7 Volvo Penta tweaked to 330HP
DP-S DuoProp w/F6 props
FWC system by Monitor Products

Homeport: Tarpon Springs, Fl. Go to Top of Page

ddurand

RO# 5015

Posted - Mar 04 2008 :  13:50:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Remember less Permatex is better than a lot. You want to paint it on with your finger, just enough to cover the gasket.


Homeport: Hyde Park, NY Go to Top of Page

tugboat kevin

RO# 24998

Posted - Mar 04 2008 :  17:54:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
we do not use exaust gaskets between head and manifold just a film of high temp silicone


Homeport: oswego ny Go to Top of Page

chriscraft67

RO# 12563

Posted - Mar 04 2008 :  20:08:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry, but those manifold to head surfaces are never machined precisely enough to not use a gasket. Put some Permatex Black on both sides of the gasket. Not a lot, just paint it on. Put a headless manifold bolt through the forward and aft manifold exhaust ports and then through the gasket and then slide the gasket-and-manifold on to your threaded studs. Hand thread the remaining manifold bolts, remove your headless studs and replace with real bolts. Tighten loosely. The riser or elbow is a problem. I put Permatex Black between the upper gasket and the lower one, which seals the block-off plate. Tighten the riser onto the manifold, even if it takes an half an hour with a 9/16" wrench. Once the elbow is in place, go back and tighten the manifold bolts, alternating front and rear until they are tight. Start the engine and watch the manifolds closely. Chances are, after the engine has come up to temp. you will see a small leak or two. Tighten the manifold as required. You will be surprised at how much you can do that. Take another look at the elbows. There isn't much pressure here but a little extra torque on those both won't hurt either.

I often go back and re-tighten after 20 hours or so. I know that OSCO doesn't recommend using anything between the manifolds and the heads, but I've found that Permatex Black works perfectly.



Homeport: Norwich, CT Go to Top of Page

jmas

RO# 4313



Posted - Mar 04 2008 :  21:30:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Did not use Permatex on my last riser/elbow install, and I regret it now. Getting slight seepage around mating surfaces even though bolts are tight. I will use the Permatex black from now on.

Joe M.
Luhrs 340 Express Fish

Homeport: Pompano Fla. Go to Top of Page

Sandy

RO# 1159

Posted - Mar 04 2008 :  22:54:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
87Cruisers originally posted : "I noticed that the manifold drain plugs (brass or bronze) go in easily but the pipe plugs and inlet/outlet fittings don't. I've run them in & out several times, cleaning out the swarf each time, so that they now seat at least 1/2 the threads into the hole. My existing installation is the same, so I guess this is the norm. "

I believe (...not positive as it's been a while)the threads in the castings are tapered NPT so the fittings threads should lock instead of continuing into the void space, but I'd think they should go farther than 1/2 way in. Just make very sure the fittings are matching whether casting threads are straight or tapered.


Sandy

Homeport: The Vineyard Go to Top of Page

cmariner32

RO# 7269

Posted - Mar 04 2008 :  23:19:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I lube the manifold plugs up with permatex too. Makes screwing them in easier. When changing my manifolds on my twins, there's not enuff room on the outboard sides of the engine to put a piece of all-thread or a headless bolt on and still be able to get the manifold over the bolts. Just placing a bolt thru the manifold on each end of the manifold and gasket and having a helper assist with getting it into position makes it simple.

The only thing that works on an old boat.....is the Owner.

Homeport: Clearwater/St. Pete Florida Go to Top of Page

mriley

RO# 25424

Posted - Mar 05 2008 :  16:52:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Charlie,
I've got the same set up and just had a similar struggle. There's one bolt securing the elbow to the manifold I can't access with a normal wrench when the pipework is assembled (and so can't check for tightness when the engine is warmed up). The 12 point ratchet might do it. Can you tell me what size ratchet you used as I will have to order it on line. Many thanks.



Homeport: portsmouth Go to Top of Page

87 cruisers

RO# 19273

Posted - Mar 05 2008 :  20:56:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mriley

Charlie,
I've got the same set up and just had a similar struggle. There's one bolt securing the elbow to the manifold I can't access with a normal wrench when the pipework is assembled (and so can't check for tightness when the engine is warmed up). The 12 point ratchet might do it. Can you tell me what size ratchet you used as I will have to order it on line. Many thanks.


I picked it up at Sears. I have it in front of me - it's a straight (not offset) 3/8" combination open end/12 point ratcheting box end. I thought it is a Craftsman until your post - it says "GearWrench". I think I paid ~$8. A regular (non-ratcheting) 3/8" 12pt box end will work, too if you already have one. I've test-fit an elbow to a manifold and this wrench is just what I need. That said, I don't know about access to all four bolts once the manifold is mounted. I'm hoping to remove the old manifolds this weekend so I'll see how much access I have.
Charlie



Homeport: Solomons, MD Go to Top of Page

87 cruisers

RO# 19273

Posted - Mar 05 2008 :  21:02:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sandy

87Cruisers originally posted : "I noticed that the manifold drain plugs (brass or bronze) go in easily but the pipe plugs and inlet/outlet fittings don't. I've run them in & out several times, cleaning out the swarf each time, so that they now seat at least 1/2 the threads into the hole. My existing installation is the same, so I guess this is the norm. "

I believe (...not positive as it's been a while)the threads in the castings are tapered NPT so the fittings threads should lock instead of continuing into the void space, but I'd think they should go farther than 1/2 way in. Just make very sure the fittings are matching whether casting threads are straight or tapered.



That makes sense. The pipe plugs and hose fittings do go in a little ways before getting really tight so I'm guessing the tapped holes are tapered and the fittings aren't. I did get everything OSCO, so it isn't like I picked up the wrong stuff. I'll just lightly coat them with Permatex and snug them down good.
Thanks to everyone for all the good info.
Charlie



Homeport: Solomons, MD Go to Top of Page

SCORPIO

RO# 4810



Posted - Mar 06 2008 :  19:07:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I noticed that OSCO says to NOT use anti sieze compound on the exhaust manifold bolts. I have always used it on exhaust manifold studs and bolts and never had any back themselves out. What do you guys do?

Chris USPS AP

Homeport: Lewes, Delaware Go to Top of Page

chriscraft67

RO# 12563

Posted - Mar 06 2008 :  21:22:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I now use anti-seize compound and I always re-torque the bolts after several heat-and-cool cycles. OSCO says the bolts will loosen if you use anti-seize but they won't if you take some time and seat them after some use. I just spent two weekends removing 12 ten-year old manifold bolts that didn't have anti-seize on them when they were installed. They all came out eventually, when I used a two-ft. extension on my ratchet handle. If I had broken just one bolt, I would have to have pulled the engine.


Homeport: Norwich, CT Go to Top of Page

ddurand

RO# 5015

Posted - Mar 07 2008 :  10:34:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The plugs and hose fittings and the holes for them should all be NPT (national pipe thread) which means they are tapered on the male and female sides. If you use a tap to clean up the hole, make sure its a NPT tap, not a normal tap for a bolt.


Homeport: Hyde Park, NY Go to Top of Page

Dave H

RO# 7245

Posted - Mar 07 2008 :  12:47:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Getting the manifold on and off is heavy work. When I had to remove mine I got a couple of extra manifold mounting bolts, ground the heads off and sawed a screwdriver slot in place of the head. Remove two manifold bolts, screw in the homemade studs and the remove the remaining bolts. When yo get the manifold loose you aren't trying to hold it up, it's supported on the studs. Slide it off then. Replacing the manifold and gaskets is then much easier. Put the studs in, put the gaskets on the studs and slip the manifold on the studs, install two bolts, remove the studs and put the remaining blots in. Saves a lot of struggle aligning the gaskets, manifold and bolts trying to hold them all up.



Homeport: Mystic, CT Go to Top of Page

Dave H

RO# 7245

Posted - Mar 07 2008 :  12:49:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have always used anti-sieze on all my marine screw, nuts, bolts etc. Never had one come loose if properly tightened.


Homeport: Mystic, CT Go to Top of Page

KinCal

RO# 15235

Posted - Mar 07 2008 :  21:37:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave H

I have always used anti-sieze on all my marine screw, nuts, bolts etc. Never had one come loose if properly tightened.



Ditto that! If it is a bolt that goes into a water jacket it gets #2 Permatex. Everything else gets Never-Sieze.


Kerry

Homeport: Go to Top of Page

obeejr

RO# 16004

Posted - Mar 09 2008 :  22:05:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anyone got a trick for removing the old style Crusader risers from the manifold? Mine don't want to come off, and I'm afraid I will damage the mating surface if I jam something between them as a lever. Because of their shape, I can only hammer on one side.


Homeport: Greenwich, CT Go to Top of Page

Adjuster

RO# 29088

Posted - Mar 10 2008 :  01:13:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One of mine was stuck super tight on the studs. I banged with a 2x4 until I was bloody from the scrapes and blue from the lack of oxygen, worked on it for four days and it never budged. I finally went to Harbor Freight and purchased a 4 pound small sledge. The very first whack and I saw a little cloud of dust rise from each stud. Man the mental relief that gave me I can't even describe because I was fed up. All studs got a liberal coating of anti seize for the replacement.


Edited by - Adjuster on Mar 10 2008 01:14:27

Homeport: Lighthouse Point Go to Top of Page

ericsilv

RO# 10428

Posted - Mar 10 2008 :  08:17:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
there usally are two issues one first need to break the seal a sledge hit in a oblique direction will fracture seal next the studs are in the exhaust passages the get caked with carbon and the riser will not slide so easy still a lot pb blaster and pounding use of pry bar not marring surface and if you can pull out studs will need to use double nut to lock for you can unthread them from manifold they eventualy come off if all else fails remove manifolds work off boat where you have more room


Homeport: brooklyn Go to Top of Page

Gregory S

RO# 2620



Posted - Mar 10 2008 :  09:12:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
good description Adjuister, I could feel your pain.


Homeport: Norfolk, Va Go to Top of Page
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