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Ghost

RO# 689



Posted - Jan 18 2010 :  18:31:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a new reason to think about diving again. I just came home this weekend with a brand new pair of Oceanic Spring Straps. Brand new, in the original Oceanic bag, unopened. How bout that! Now I just need to drop 60 pounds, start running every day and think about having a PFO repaired.

But, until then I wanted to gripe again about the curent standard of diving. What got me going was the video of the sunken Bertam in another thread.

http://www.yachtforums.com/video.php?title=sunkbertram br / " target="_blank"> br / br / http://www.yachtforums.com/video.php?title=sunkbertram br /


I could barely watch the guy diving. If it wasn't for the fact that we know the video came home I probably would have had to turn away. Here you have a guy who is crawling around and penetrating a massively torn up wreck with many many entaglements.

My goodness, I don't think I could possibly count all the life threatening issues here, but lets try.

I'll start with my all time favorite:
*SNORKEL!!!!!
*No buoyancy control.
*Constant tricycling.
*more danglies than paris hilton's dog
*Single tank for an entanglement potential wreck dive.
*Even more danglies. Danglies everywhere.
*Constantly having to hold onto the wreck to maintain control of himself.

Honestly the only thing missing here is split fins and a body bag.

Okay, rant off. It was just pathetic. I just can't watch guys like this without getting the heebee jeebee's and if this is the level of professionalism in the diving, you can imagine the basis of the reports he's writing are not much better. At least their was video to tell the tale.




What part of GALE WARNING did you not understand?

Homeport: Everett Wa

froggy3k

RO# 4247

Posted - Jan 19 2010 :  17:49:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I questioned the buoyancy also. Holding on I figured was due to the swift current. The shots inside showing the camera obviously coming to a halt made me nervous like he was hung up. But..... I really enjoyed the underwater shots! Man, I have to get to warm water! The NE with 15' vis is a drag.....
Chris



Homeport: Sunny SW FL Go to Top of Page

rnbenton

RO# 31163



Posted - Jan 19 2010 :  19:24:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I thought maybe it was current as well so I started watching his bubble ascent. It was almost straight up indicating very little current.

I agree, I saw a lot of things that were extremely questionable during that video.

I'm glad it wasn't just me.

Bob



Key West 196 Bay Reef, 150 Yamaha
USCG 50 Ton MMC, Tow Assist Endorsement
SSI Certified Instructor Level 1


Homeport: Palm Coast, FL Go to Top of Page

king5899

RO# 19628

Posted - Jan 19 2010 :  20:45:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
He's definitely wearing too much weight.He seams to be struggling to keep his ass from sinking. I've dove several wrecks off of NC, and let me tell you if your not 100% ready and prepared it is the wrong place to be. I saw some guys stirring up the silt in a wreck that brought vis to 0'. It can definitely get your heart racing.

MJK


2003 Cruisers Yachts 3372
"Party of Five"

Homeport: Stony Point Bay Marina, NY - FKA "D" Dock Go to Top of Page

Capt. Bill1

RO# 2017

Posted - Feb 06 2010 :  22:30:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Funny, I thought the same things when I saw the video. Scary and sad at the same time.


Homeport: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale Go to Top of Page

Shake n Bake

RO# 16525

Posted - Feb 07 2010 :  09:09:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm a little slow, what's wrong with split fins?


Homeport: Marco Island, FL Go to Top of Page

rnbenton

RO# 31163



Posted - Feb 07 2010 :  10:11:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shake n Bake

I'm a little slow, what's wrong with split fins?



Split fins are OK in their proper place and conditions. shallow reef, good vis, little or no current? OK. But in deeper water, limited vis, current, on a wreck with lots of tangles, lugging around a video camera? Not so much.

The reason a lot of recreational divers like split fins is that they are easier to kick. The reason they are easier to kick is that they produce only about half as much thrust per kick. less thrust = less control in moving water.

The intent of the above comment regarding split fins, IMHO, was to point out that the only thing left for that diver to do that would make his demeanor even more dangerous would be to have on split fins, giving him even less control than he was exercising. It was about the diver, not about split fins per se.

Bob



Key West 196 Bay Reef, 150 Yamaha
USCG 50 Ton MMC, Tow Assist Endorsement
SSI Certified Instructor Level 1


Edited by - rnbenton on Feb 07 2010 13:20:17

Homeport: Palm Coast, FL Go to Top of Page

rnbenton

RO# 31163



Posted - Feb 07 2010 :  10:13:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ghost





Many years ago I worked on a SCUBA dive boat out of Miami. One of the popular sayings of the time was: "If you put a dead man in a chair in most SCUBA dive shops with $500 pinned to his shirt, they would certify him, sell him a set of equipment and book him a trip to the Bahamas."

From what I've witnessed divers doing over the years leads me to believe that this is not too far removed from the truth.

Bob



Key West 196 Bay Reef, 150 Yamaha
USCG 50 Ton MMC, Tow Assist Endorsement
SSI Certified Instructor Level 1


Homeport: Palm Coast, FL Go to Top of Page

Ghost

RO# 689



Posted - Feb 07 2010 :  18:59:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you have Bob's demeaner then nothing wrong with the split fins. Bob explained it probably better than I could but he maybe missed one important point. The biggest problem with split fins is that there is (or at least was) such a craze about them that the people buying them long ago forgot why and just proclaimed them to be the "thing". One thing that gets on my nerves is the "accepted ignorance" in the diving sport where all kinds of stupid stupid stuff just gets repeated and nobody thinks to question it for even a moment. There is a shop here close to me owned by a guy who is so stupid he can barely breathe. You have to understand that I'm not someone to go into a shop and talk at all about myself. So this guy, lets call him "bubbles" starts bragging to me about the time that he ruptured a drysuit. He tells me "The weight of the water" entering the suit "pinned him to the bottom", that the hundreds of pounds of water was so heavy he could "barely move his arms". I'm not kidding. This guy owns a dive store. He teaches people to dive. They believe him. Hell, I think he believes himself. So...the splitfins to me is just an example of a large number of people being really really sure about themselves, but having absolutely no idea why. Brain off.

If you want fine control, you buy a non fancy stiff fin and learn how to kick properly. That will be hard because they stopped teaching it about 20 years ago (not kidding). You need fine control in a wreck to prevent becoming entangled. Once you buy the stiff fins, you don't need another set. If they are hard to kick, then kick less, same amount of energy but people won't think that way. They want to kick like you see in movies. When I was 150 pounds and could kick like mad I would not do that. You will be exhausted soon and worse, will have generated way way way way too much C02 to deal with. If you go at all deep the last thing you wan to be doing is kicking, screws everything up. Split fins just let you look like your kicking without doing much. I probably could not even kick my fins right now I'm in such bad shape. But if I got in the water you would find I would not be doing much with the kicking anyway. The point is to scull yourself around easily and precisely and conserve energy. If I want to move somewhere, I'll take a scooter.

Bob...I honestly think you give the dive industry way too much credit. The guy would have to have a credit card pinned to his shirt because most of the shop monkeys could never figure out how to count change at the till.


What part of GALE WARNING did you not understand?

Homeport: Everett Wa Go to Top of Page

Capt. Bill1

RO# 2017

Posted - Feb 07 2010 :  21:31:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rnbenton

quote:
Originally posted by Shake n Bake

I'm a little slow, what's wrong with split fins?



Split fins are OK in their proper place and conditions. shallow reef, good vis, little or no current? OK. But in deeper water, limited vis, current, on a wreck with lots of tangles, lugging around a video camera? Not so much.

The reason a lot of recreational divers like split fins is that they are easier to kick. The reason they are easier to kick is that they produce only about half as much thrust per kick. less thrust = less control in moving water.

The intent of the above comment regarding split fins, IMHO, was to point out that the only thing left for that diver to do that would make his demeanor even more dangerous would be to have on split fins, giving him even less control than he was exercising. It was about the diver, not about split fins per se.

Bob





Oh horse hockey. I know lots of divers who have switched from "regular" fins to split and feel they have gained power and still have plenty of control. In fact some split fins test as good or better than non-split fins.

http://www.scubadiving.com/gear/2007/11/18-new-fins




Homeport: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale Go to Top of Page

Ghost

RO# 689



Posted - Feb 07 2010 :  22:39:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yup, I bet they swear on it. Industry makes lots of money on them too.

What part of GALE WARNING did you not understand?

Homeport: Everett Wa Go to Top of Page

Capt. Bill1

RO# 2017

Posted - Feb 07 2010 :  22:51:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK, explain the test results then?


Homeport: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale Go to Top of Page

rnbenton

RO# 31163



Posted - Feb 08 2010 :  09:23:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Capt. Bill1

quote:
Originally posted by rnbenton

quote:
Originally posted by Shake n Bake









Oh horse hockey. I know lots of divers who have switched from "regular" fins to split and feel they have gained power and still have plenty of control. In fact some split fins test as good or better than non-split fins.

http://www.scubadiving.com/gear/2007/11/18-new-fins


Well, I've been to Capt. Don's, where those tests were done, several and I'm very familiar with the diving there on Bonaire. VERY, little current at any time, extremely good visibility wall diving. But there is an oddity in the test results that bear out exactly what I said above.

In the Speed Test there is one split in the top finishers. In the Thrust Test there are 2 splits in the top three. But in the Slalom Time Test, there are no splits in the top 3. Why? Because in a Slalom Test control is an overwhelming factor. Never mind that the Speed vs Thrust tests are contradictory.

Again, I'll say it, splits are good in their intended environment and conditions. I am an old man, not in tip top physical shape and I regularly use a pair of splits in the Bahamas and, yes, in the ABC's. Why? They are easier to kick and I don't get as tired as quickly. Why work harder diving than you have to.

But, in current, around a wreck with lots of tangles, lugging my vodeo housing, or anywhere I need added thrust and control I use my "Smokes" every time.

Bob



Key West 196 Bay Reef, 150 Yamaha
USCG 50 Ton MMC, Tow Assist Endorsement
SSI Certified Instructor Level 1


Edited by - rnbenton on Feb 08 2010 09:50:51

Homeport: Palm Coast, FL Go to Top of Page

rnbenton

RO# 31163



Posted - Feb 08 2010 :  09:40:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ghost

Bob...I honestly think you give the dive industry way too much credit. The guy would have to have a credit card pinned to his shirt because most of the shop monkeys could never figure out how to count change at the till.



LOL, well, you have to consider that it was in the mid 60's when I worked that dive boat. Not many credit cards being used then.

But, then again that was a time when almost all diving was hard pack, negative bouyancy. Fancy equipment consisted of a dive watch with rotating bezel and a horse collar BC. Safety consisted of a pull down wire that, supposedly, gave you 15 minutes more air (J Valve I think they called it) and regulators were the old "Mike Nelson" type single stage regulators. They actually taught "Buddy Breathing" too.We also learned how to use Dive Tables. Do they even teach that any more?

Oh yeah, the state of the art fins, at that time, were open heel fins made by Voit and were very short and stiff as a board.

But, man, the reefs in south Florida and the Keys were sure in better condition back then.

All of this be as it may, it's mostly based on personal preferrences and opinion. That's why they made so many different kinds and models of everything.

what I enjoy the most, though, is the dialogue. I would really like to bee this forum become much more active than it has been in the past. Diving os one of my favorite activities and i thoroughly enjoy the debate and discussion. No matter how long each of us has been diving and no matter how many dives we have logged, I learn something from each and every such discussion.

Bob



Key West 196 Bay Reef, 150 Yamaha
USCG 50 Ton MMC, Tow Assist Endorsement
SSI Certified Instructor Level 1


Edited by - rnbenton on Feb 08 2010 10:04:40

Homeport: Palm Coast, FL Go to Top of Page

MikeeH

RO# 6342



Posted - Feb 08 2010 :  12:41:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just my experience. I was certified by NAUI about 3 years ago. I was taught tables and buddy breathing. Also had to drop all my gear in 12' (pool), retrieve it and gear-up under water.. it was a timed skill test but I forget the parameters. The course was 8 weeks plus the open water dive so all in all, I felt I had a great instructor and got a good intro to SCUBA. That said, having seen some other divers when in Asia I understand where the cynicism comes from. Now, if I could just lose about 30 lbs and get back in shape I might even fit back into my 3 mil! LOL

Mike

I recently realized that at this stage of my life I'm now wise enough to know better, but old enough not to give a damn.

Homeport: Still Pond, MD Go to Top of Page

rnbenton

RO# 31163



Posted - Feb 08 2010 :  12:54:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MikeeH

Just my experience. I was certified by NAUI about 3 years ago. I was taught tables and buddy breathing. Also had to drop all my gear in 12' (pool), retrieve it and gear-up under water.. it was a timed skill test but I forget the parameters. The course was 8 weeks plus the open water dive so all in all, I felt I had a great instructor and got a good intro to SCUBA. That said, having seen some other divers when in Asia I understand where the cynicism comes from. Now, if I could just lose about 30 lbs and get back in shape I might even fit back into my 3 mil! LOL



Just curious, did they teach you octupus sharing or honest to goodness buddy breathing, i.e. two people sharing the same regulator?

Either way, with an 8 week program, leaning both tables and buddy breathing, it sounds like you did, indeed, have a good instructor.

Did they also have you to the removal and gear up in open water or just the pool? (Just curious) I haven't taught in MANY years so was curious what skills are taught now.

In the past I have taught a lot of Refresher Courses (didn't have the time to do full instruction) and had students absolutely apalled that I would have them go gear and mask removals. "We never had to do that for certification" was the most repeated quote.

As for getting into the 3 mil you're on your own.

When I was working in China I went on a few dive trips out of HKG. Invariable I was the only Quai Lo on the boat so ended up buddies up with a Chinese guy I couldn't talk to. The last one I dove with my last glimps of him was at 100 feet with his head down and kicking. I don't know how deep he went but it was WAY past 100 ft.

Plus, when he got back on the boat, about 15 minutes after me, I looked at his pressure gauge which showed less that 100 PSI. Safety stop? Doubtful.

Bob



Key West 196 Bay Reef, 150 Yamaha
USCG 50 Ton MMC, Tow Assist Endorsement
SSI Certified Instructor Level 1


Homeport: Palm Coast, FL Go to Top of Page

Capt. Bill1

RO# 2017

Posted - Feb 08 2010 :  15:40:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"When I was working in China I went on a few dive trips out of HKG. Invariable I was the only Quai Lo on the boat so ended up buddies up with a Chinese guy I couldn't talk to. The last one I dove with my last glimps of him was at 100 feet with his head down and kicking. I don't know how deep he went but it was WAY past 100 ft.

Plus, when he got back on the boat, about 15 minutes after me, I looked at his pressure gauge which showed less that 100 PSI. Safety stop? Doubtful."

On most dive trips, if you are diving single, you shouldn't be counting on your assigned "buddy" to SYA any ways. You've never met them and you have no idea as to their real skill level. Face it, you're solo diving whether you like it or not and whether or not your "buddy" sticks to you like glue, IMHO.

As to going below 100' and coming up with 100 psi, to each his own I say. Coming up with 500psi is just some arbitrary number any way (Just like the 130' "recreational" depth limit.) and a waste of good air. And I don't see how coming up with less in any way means you missed a stop. You are paying for the time under the water, not the boat ride.



Homeport: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale Go to Top of Page

rnbenton

RO# 31163



Posted - Feb 08 2010 :  16:18:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Capt. Bill1

"When I was working in China I went on a few dive trips out of HKG. Invariable I was the only Quai Lo on the boat so ended up buddies up with a Chinese guy I couldn't talk to. The last one I dove with my last glimps of him was at 100 feet with his head down and kicking. I don't know how deep he went but it was WAY past 100 ft.

Plus, when he got back on the boat, about 15 minutes after me, I looked at his pressure gauge which showed less that 100 PSI. Safety stop? Doubtful."

On most dive trips, if you are diving single, you shouldn't be counting on your assigned "buddy" to SYA any ways. You've never met them and you have no idea as to their real skill level. Face it, you're solo diving whether you like it or not and whether or not your "buddy" sticks to you like glue, IMHO.

As to going below 100' and coming up with 100 psi, to each his own I say. Coming up with 500psi is just some arbitrary number any way (Just like the 130' "recreational" depth limit.) and a waste of good air. And I don't see how coming up with less in any way means you missed a stop. You are paying for the time under the water, not the boat ride.



To echo the term you used above, that's a load of horse hockey! Attitudes like that are what gets people hurt diving. Arbitrary numbers? You may think so but they absolutely are not. Those safety standards were established based on years and years of diving data and accident and injury statistics. (If you are interested DAN will be more than happy to supply all the basis information you want)

But I doubt that you are at all interested.

You are correct about one thing though. Most of the time you are, in actuality, a solo diver. Unless you happen to be looking directly at your buddy when a malfunction occures you are most likely on your own, which makes adhering to depth/time and air time limits even more important. That's also why I always recommend further certifications beyond Open Water. Advanced is good but Rescue Diver is the best and most valuable course that can be taken. Why? Because it teaches you how to recignize and control panic. They also re-enforce not ignoring depth/time limits and teach you not to suck your tank dry. IMHO.

Bob



Key West 196 Bay Reef, 150 Yamaha
USCG 50 Ton MMC, Tow Assist Endorsement
SSI Certified Instructor Level 1


Edited by - rnbenton on Feb 08 2010 16:25:53

Homeport: Palm Coast, FL Go to Top of Page

Capt. Bill1

RO# 2017

Posted - Feb 08 2010 :  18:03:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"To echo the term you used above, that's a load of horse hockey! Attitudes like that are what gets people hurt diving. Arbitrary numbers? You may think so but they absolutely are not. Those safety standards were established based on years and years of diving data and accident and injury statistics. (If you are interested DAN will be more than happy to supply all the basis information you want)

But I doubt that you are at all interested."

OK, explain way 500 psi is safer than 400 or 600psi? And why 130 feet is safer than 120 or 140 feet? And cite how 500psi and 130 feet came about as being the safest numbers. If you are hanging at 15 feet with less than 500 psi but with plenty of air time for a safety stop what exactly is going to go wrong?

I read DAN's accident reports from time to time. The cause of which seem to rarely have to do with coming up with less than 500 psi or going below 130 feet from what I've seen. And in most cases the victim has a buddy.

"which makes adhering to depth/time and air time limits even more important."

Nobody said it wasn't. But diving with computers (or the proper tables and knowing your air consumption rate) and a bit of training you would be hard press to get me to believe that going below 130 and ending up with 100 psi at the boat is endangering yourself.



Homeport: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale Go to Top of Page

rnbenton

RO# 31163



Posted - Feb 08 2010 :  18:24:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bill, in response:

OK, explain way 500 psi is safer than 400 or 600psi? - OK, because if something goes wrong; equipment failure, cramp, bent, happens during your ascent you have more time (air) to work through it. On the ascent is almost always when physical problems arise. The more air you have, the more time you have to deal with it.

And why 130 feet is safer than 120 or 140 feet? - OK, it is safer than 140 feet but it is not safer than 120 feet because the deeper you go the faster your body absorbs nitrogen. Doing that along with sucking down to 100 PSI greatly increases your chances of getting into real trouble during ascent. The deeper you have been, asuming you have not exceeded deco limits, the slower your ascent has to be.

And cite how 500psi and 130 feet came about as being the safest numbers. - No one ever said those are the "safest" numbers. What the statistics say is that exceed those numbers and the incidence of accident or injury goes up dramatically. Again, all of these numbers are taking into consideration relatively inexperience divers with minimal (Open Water or in some cases Resort) certifications and decades of diving data.

If you are hanging at 15 feet with less than 500 psi but with plenty of air time for a safety stop what exactly is going to go wrong? - OK, have you ever seen someone get bent while hanging on the safety stop bar? Actually, it happens a lot and I've seen it happen. With enough air the diver can descend intil the pain stops and, if necessary, wait for more air to be brought down so a prolonged deco stop can be executed.

You also mentioned diving with a computer. If you will use an air integrated computer (which I highly recommend for everyone) it will not let you get down to 100 PSI without knocking your ears off with a loud audible alarm. Think they may know something?

Bob



Key West 196 Bay Reef, 150 Yamaha
USCG 50 Ton MMC, Tow Assist Endorsement
SSI Certified Instructor Level 1


Edited by - rnbenton on Feb 08 2010 18:37:18

Homeport: Palm Coast, FL Go to Top of Page

MikeeH

RO# 6342



Posted - Feb 08 2010 :  19:34:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bob,

I was taught buddy breathing using both the octo and a single reg (I still remember the young girl in the class who was "disgusted" with sharing a regulator). The gear dumo and suit=up was in the pool only. Our open water dives were in a quarry in eastern PA so doing it there would have stir up enough silt put us in 0 viz. When in China I made a dive from Hainan Island.... what a waste and marine wasteland. The Koreans were the worst divers on the boat! Fortuantely I had a real buddy with me. Never made it to Thailand while in China; that's where I really wanted to dive.


Mike

I recently realized that at this stage of my life I'm now wise enough to know better, but old enough not to give a damn.

Homeport: Still Pond, MD Go to Top of Page

Capt. Bill1

RO# 2017

Posted - Feb 08 2010 :  19:51:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"OK, explain way 500 psi is safer than 400 or 600psi? - OK, because if something goes wrong; equipment failure, cramp, bent, happens during your ascent you have more time (air) to work through it. On the ascent is almost always when physical problems arise. The more air you have, the more time you have to deal with it."

At 30 feet or less 100 psi + or - is not going to make a big difference. And it sure ain't going to help if your bent. If you bent your bent. Time to get out, get on O2 and go to the chamber.

"And why 130 feet is safer than 120 or 140 feet? - OK, it is safer than 140 feet but it is not safer than 120 feet because the deeper you go the faster your body absorbs nitrogen. Doing that along with sucking down to 100 PSI greatly increases your chances of getting into real trouble during ascent. The deeper you have been, asuming you have not exceeded deco limits, the slower your ascent has to be."

That still doesn't answer the question. And if you are on the boat with 100 psi that doesn't in any way mean you came up to fast or missed a stop.

"And cite how 500psi and 130 feet came about as being the safest numbers. - No one ever said those are the "safest" numbers. What the statistics say is that exceed those numbers and the incidence of accident or injury goes up dramatically. Again, all of these numbers are taking into consideration relatively inexperience divers with minimal (Open Water or in some cases Resort) certifications and decades of diving data."

Cite please?

"If you are hanging at 15 feet with less than 500 psi but with plenty of air time for a safety stop what exactly is going to go wrong? - OK, have you ever seen someone get bent while hanging on the safety stop bar? Actually, it happens a lot and I've seen it happen. With enough air the diver can descend intil the pain stops and, if necessary, wait for more air to be brought down so a prolonged deco stop can be executed."

"it happens a lot"

A lot!? How many times have you seen this?

From what I've read most people don't even seem to know they are bent till they get out of the water. And in many cases off the boat. Unless they have done something real stupid.

If you're bent your bent. No matter how much air you have left in your tank.

I find that you even suggest in water re-compression is a bit scary. Most dive boats don't have Navy Table 6 (or any other IWR table for that matter)on board with along with an in water O2 set up nor the skills to use them. The only group I'm aware of who use this method with any regularity are tech divers. And they have trained for it and have the proper equipment and tables.

"With enough air the diver can descend intil the pain stops and, if necessary, wait for more air to be brought down so a prolonged deco stop can be executed."

IWR tables call for you to go 30' or more passed the point pain is relieved. 500psi is not going to be much help in that unlikely scenario.

And no agency I know of recommends in water re-compression as anything but a very, very last resort best done by professionals. What you are suggesting is considered dangerous. Just because going deep may stop the pain doesn't mean you're still not bent and in need of a chamber ride. If some one is bent you get them out of the water as fast as you can, on O2 and in the chamber with out delay.

"You also mentioned diving with a computer. If you will use an air integrated computer (which I highly recommend for everyone) it will not let you get down to 100 PSI without knocking your ears off with a loud audible alarm".

"Think they may know something?"

Not really. Proves nothing. Other than people like toys with gimmicks.

And I have and dive with one, you can choose to turn off the alarm. (Which I do. I hate hearing those things underwater. :-) ) If you are not checking your gauges regularly enough that you need an alarm to tell you you're down to 100 psi and not very near the surface, you shouldn't be diving.





Edited by - Capt. Bill1 on Feb 08 2010 22:21:02

Homeport: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale Go to Top of Page

king5899

RO# 19628

Posted - Feb 08 2010 :  20:02:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My only comment about 130 and 500 are that I don't have the time nor knowledge to determine if they are magic numbers or not so I try and follow them as best I can. 130 +/- 5 or 10 no big deal push it further, no thanks. I've also returned to the boat with 100 psi but then again I prefer to carry a pony tank for those just in case times.
More importantly I am a strong believer in a slow ascent up the anchor line from 50 or 130ft. I don't know how many times I've been passed by someone rushing to get back on deck. I'd rather take a slow ascent do my 3 minutes (maybe more if I have the air) and then surface. Plus you can usually find some friendly barracuda’s hanging under the boat to entertain you while hanging the line. What’s the rush to get out.

Bottom line, use your head and plan your dive

MJK


BTW - Try a 7MM Farmer John after putting on some winter insulation, takes 3 people and 15 minutes, then your too tired to dive.


2003 Cruisers Yachts 3372
"Party of Five"

Homeport: Stony Point Bay Marina, NY - FKA "D" Dock Go to Top of Page

November Charlie

RO# 824

Posted - Mar 10 2010 :  18:01:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MikeeH

Just my experience. I was certified by NAUI about 3 years ago. I was taught tables and buddy breathing. Also had to drop all my gear in 12' (pool), retrieve it and gear-up under water.. it was a timed skill test but I forget the parameters. The course was 8 weeks plus the open water dive so all in all, I felt I had a great instructor and got a good intro to SCUBA. That said, having seen some other divers when in Asia I understand where the cynicism comes from. Now, if I could just lose about 30 lbs and get back in shape I might even fit back into my 3 mil! LOL




I certified a few years ago in a NAUI course as well. To this day I haven't dove in a pool - or freshwater, for that matter, but we did have to do the ditch and don in 10-15 feet*. Learned well in accordance with the current standards - tables, sharing air with an octo, all that. THEN I learned to dive - to share air, to deal with underwater problems underwater, myself, to not rely on a 'buddy', to share a single regulator in the event air sharing is required, to weight properly, to conserve energy and air, to get back into a boat myself. In shallower water, that simple rig - the plastic backplate, steel 100, and single Cyklon 300 with a simple brass and glass SPG and drysuit whip is my favorite rig. Tuck the SPG under the waist strap, and NO danglies, NO luggage, NO hassle. Anything deeper than I can comfortably swim it up from is a different story.

* - The asterisk. The 'ditch and don'. During the class, on several shallowish dives we had to switch all of our gear back and forth underwater - not kneeling on the bottom, but at about 10 feet with a bottom of 15 feet. Couple of us must have been seen having too much fun, because after lunch, our fins and masks were threaded through our harness straps, and the rigs chucked over the side. You know how hard it is to kick down 12-15 feet in a neoprene drysuit without the benefit of the negative value of a steel HP100? Turned out to be a useful skill, though, as more than once since then I've inadvertently chucked my lead all the way over my inflatable instead of into it.


My signature line is cooler than your signature line.

Homeport: Northwest Go to Top of Page

spj

RO# 31662

Posted - Mar 11 2010 :  08:37:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am going to jump in on only one of the many points here, Buddy Breathing.

First, I am a PADI instructor and have been for over 15 years. I do not turn out the numbers that many PADI instructors do, but I try to do 2-3 classes a year.

A couple of years ago PADI stop requiring us to teach buddy breathing. I believe the main reason for not requiring it were, the availability and reliability of an octopus, and the concern that in a panic situation, you would end up with two vitioms instead of one.

I do explain and demostrat buddy breathing, but do not have my students practice it.

I choose my buddies very carefully, if they can not or will not get an octopus, I will not dive with them, no more then I would dive with a buddy, that will not get a computer. (students are a different matter, they are required to have an octo, but not a computer)

If you have two individuals, lets say they dive twice a year when they travel. They have been certified for 10 years, and have not done buddy breathing for 10 years, what do you think would happen if they tried it from 80' when one of them is out of air? The chances of the guy that is out of air, giving up that air once he has it in his mouth is slim.

As far as the other skills and information, yes I think we have trimed down the class way to far! But the choice was to bring it down to a level that most people can do it, or run the industry out of business.



Edited by - spj on Mar 11 2010 08:43:37

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November Charlie

RO# 824

Posted - Mar 11 2010 :  11:31:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not meaning to stir the pot, but for the sake of discussion, why wouldn't you dive with someone without a computer or octo?

Personally - and I think we're on the same page as far as decisions on who to dive or not dive with are a very 'personally' kind of thing, I don't dive with a computer simply because I don't do many repetitive or multi-level dives, so I've never given that much thought to the issue. Honest curiosity at play, not stirring a pot. As far as octos, when I do dive my rig that has one, I (personally) assume that a panicked OOG diver is going to do all they can to get the reg out of my mouth anyways, and keep my octo on a bungee cord around my neck where I always know exactly where it is, know it works, and can get it online quickly and easily. I see a lot of divers, especially infrequent, 'resort' type divers (not that many of them dive in New England), that couldn't find their octo with flashing lights, a map, and four hands on the boat, let alone in the water. Do you see the same thing, or see that as an issue with a lot of divers?


My signature line is cooler than your signature line.

Homeport: Northwest Go to Top of Page

Ghost

RO# 689



Posted - Mar 11 2010 :  11:42:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spj

we have trimed down the class way to far! But the choice was to bring it down to a level that most people can do it, or run the industry out of business.



This is going to sound personal, but I'm really directing the comment at PADI in particular. Other than the quote you gave, your comments are spot on. Except, don't limit to the "inexperienced". It's really hard to give air back to someone when you need it to breathe and YOU need to breathe like its the last breathe on the face of this earth (and it might be for you). I've practiced a LOT of OOG drills in my life in scenarios that are highly stressed. We used to do sharing drills on EVERY single dive. I can't imagine getting into more then 3 feet of water without having that down pat.

Anyway, back to the point. As far as the comment about the industry being more important than the minimum necessary skill levels. Well, I wish somebody at PADI could find the time to explain this to a couple of folks I know with some pretty ruined lives. I could just see the conversation.
"Yes Maam, I'm sorry about the loss of your husband, but we just could not afford to teach him properly". The PADI rep could then turn to the missing husbands best friend, the one who shoved a spare air in the panicing OOG divers mouth and LEFT HIM to fend for himself. "Sir, I know the store you purchased the spare air from is a very reputable five star PADI facility, given that the unit was hardly used and still nearly full of air, well I'm sure that the reputable store would be glad to give you a store credit of 10% towards the cost of a new pony bottle"

We found the diver in 30 feet of water, he made it up the wall, out of the depths and died 30 seconds from the surface. That close to the surface you have to wonder if he could have made it, if only he was taught to dive with proper buoyancy and weighting. I don't remember but I think we figured he was carrying close to 20 pounds more weight they he should have. That's a lot and he still had it all on.

We found the nearly full spair air on the bottom. My buddy the charter captain violated CG rules by leaving the boat and diving into the water moments after this guys best friend hits the surface screaming about leaving his friend on the bottom. Unfortunately, he could not find the victim(that took another day and a half. I have to wonder how much fun it was to explain to your best friends wife in real time (she was on the boat) about how you did not know what to do so you just left. He paid for the sin of killing his best friend by becoming an alcoholic, losing his job and everything else. I figure at some point he probably just blew his head off, but in the end probably did not have the courage to do it.

People die not from equipment, but from a lack of training and skills. The basics, nothing more than mask clearing, air sharing, buoyancy and the buddy system. You go to any popular dive site and I'll show you 75% of the people there who could not on the spot pass a basic skills evaluation of mask removal/refit, air sharing and buoayancy control. PADI wants to rubber stamp students and sell equipment to solve the problem.

Personally I'd like to urinate all over the heads of PADI for what they have done to the industry.

These little incidents actually happen quite frequently. Most of those 5 star facilities do a pretty darn good job of hushing the incidents, but its prevalent. You show me a 5 star facility and I'll show you a facility with a body count that is "not their fault".

With the recession and all, I sure hope business is good. Lord knows what they will sacrifice next. But hey, business is business.









What part of GALE WARNING did you not understand?

Edited by - Ghost on Mar 11 2010 19:40:44

Homeport: Everett Wa Go to Top of Page

Capt. Bill1

RO# 2017

Posted - Mar 11 2010 :  11:47:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"I believe the main reason for not requiring it"

Was contained in your last sentence. Money.



Homeport: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale Go to Top of Page

spj

RO# 31662

Posted - Mar 11 2010 :  12:00:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by November Charlie

Not meaning to stir the pot, but for the sake of discussion, why wouldn't you dive with someone without a computer or octo?

Personally - and I think we're on the same page as far as decisions on who to dive or not dive with are a very 'personally' kind of thing, I don't dive with a computer simply because I don't do many repetitive or multi-level dives, so I've never given that much thought to the issue. Honest curiosity at play, not stirring a pot. As far as octos, when I do dive my rig that has one, I (personally) assume that a panicked OOG diver is going to do all they can to get the reg out of my mouth anyways, and keep my octo on a bungee cord around my neck where I always know exactly where it is, know it works, and can get it online quickly and easily. I see a lot of divers, especially infrequent, 'resort' type divers (not that many of them dive in New England), that couldn't find their octo with flashing lights, a map, and four hands on the boat, let alone in the water. Do you see the same thing, or see that as an issue with a lot of divers?




Very valid question, and I don't think of it as stiring the pot.

I won't dive with someone without a computer, because in most case you are going to get much more bottom time, with a computer then you are with tables. If I am going to invest in doing a diver, I want to spend my time in the water.

Typical cost to go diving for a day is around $150-$200,Boat cost gas fills, lunch, driving to and from boat etc, Plus a full day out. If I can get 50% more time under waterusing a computer I do not want to be held back by the tables. I have no problem lending out a computer if needed.

As for as an octopus, it is a basic piece of safety equipment, Average cost $100. There is no reason not to have it. While 90% of the time I have a pony bottle, If I need air from my "buddy" I want it to be available.

As with you, I assume that in an out of air situation, they are going to take the reg from my mouth! No hand signals saying low on air/out of air, they are going to rip my reg out of my mouth and start breathing. I know i am going to have to find my Octo. (Mine is on my low pressure inflator hose, meant for me to use and pass of my primary)

Yes A large percentage of divers, can not find any of thier gear, never mind thier octo in an emergency. I dive in New Jersey, and it is the same here, but probably not as bad as when you are at a resort!



Homeport: nj Go to Top of Page

spj

RO# 31662

Posted - Mar 11 2010 :  12:41:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ghost,

First I am sorry for the loss of your friend. Other then Buddy breathing, I do not believe PADI has dropped any skill requirements since I first started diving, in the early 80's. Buddy breathing was taught as a way to help your buddy that ran out of air. It was a skill developed before SPG and the Octopus. With an SPG and Octopus, it makes Buddy Breathing an outdated skill. We still teach sharing air, but only with the Octopus.

By the time someone has completed a PADI Open water course they are supposed to have mastered both mask removal and replacement and sharing air, as well as what to do if your buddy is not close enough to share air.

I try to beat it into the heads of my students that I am teaching them the basics on how to dive, and how to use the dive equipment, and that it is the beginning of their learning. Where I think PADI has cut down the course is in the basic knowledge, not the in water skills.

What baffles me is I will have someone in class for the classroom, confined water and open water, and they do great. Then I will see them out on the boat 2 months later, and say how did this person ever make it thru open water training, did the forget everything they ever learned.


As for the incident you described, I would not sell someone a "spare air" for use any where any time. From 30 feet you may get a couple of breaths, no more. I used to love Bay Watch, 20 minutes swimming hard looking for someone/something on a spare air. IF someone wants a redundant air supply is a pony bottle, and regulator, nothing less!





Homeport: nj Go to Top of Page

rnbenton

RO# 31163



Posted - Mar 11 2010 :  12:44:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spj

I choose my buddies very carefully,As

But the choice was to bring it down to a level that most people can do it, or run the industry out of business.



First Quote: BINGO! I'm glad I'm not the only one. I have actually gotten back on a dive boat after dive #1 for the day and refused to do #2 or #3 because either the dive master or the guy I was buddied with was an idiot.

Second Quote: Man, I sure hope the FAA never takes the same stand on pilot training PADI that apparently does for diver training.

As for the poor soul found dead in 30' of water, there's so many thing I'd like to be able to know. In particular, why did he run out of air in the first place? Didn't look at his pressure gauge? Pushed it on purpose? Or just flat screwed up? (Another point for integrated computers. They will give a loud low air alarm)

I've been diving since 1965, am a Dive Master and have well over 5000 dives (at last check) and I've seen divers do all manner of things they should not be doing. Of all the accidents and dive injuries I have any knowledge of there has never been one happen because the diver had too much training.

I am no longer active but when I was, every time I did a check dive with a new diver I always recommend they get further training as soon as they were eligable. Open Water, Advanced then Rescue Diver.

I love the rescue Diver program because it concentrates on recognition and management of Panic. IMHO the prime cause of diver death is Panic.

Bob



Key West 196 Bay Reef, 150 Yamaha
USCG 50 Ton MMC, Tow Assist Endorsement
SSI Certified Instructor Level 1


Edited by - rnbenton on Mar 11 2010 12:56:37

Homeport: Palm Coast, FL Go to Top of Page

L. Keith

RO# 1615

Posted - Mar 12 2010 :  07:46:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Concerning dive computers. Have you ever seen a commercial diver use a computer? You never will. Dive computers are not allowed, US Navy dive tables only. The reason dive computers were invented was to aid the diving "Resort" industry. If you make two to three dives per day in the 60' range, you will limit out on the tables on about day four. That blows selling a seven day/six night dive package. I learned to dive in the days prior to the arrival of all the alphabet dive training companies.

I was first certified by a diving club run by two WWII "Frogmen". To even qualify to take the course you had to be able to swim 1 mile non-stop, tread water with your hands out of the water for 45 minutes and bring up the 25 pound rubber brick from the bottom of a 14' deep pool. Then you were allowed to take the classroom course which were three hour classes, each week for 4 months, followed by about six weeks of pool work. The lesson plan was absorbed by NASDS (National Association of Skin Diving Schools) and became their model for the first national program of diving instruction. All members of the dive club were issued NASDS "C" cards, which I still carry today and have used all over the world.

The first check out dive was in a Florida Spring where you had to do a 50' free ascent. You descended to 50'(with instructor) removed your regulator and made a controlled free ascent (rising no faster than your smallest bubble), exhaling the entire way. This showed you could make a safe controlled free ascent from any depth. The open water check out dive was at an Offshore Oil Platform where you learned about current flow at different depths and staying with your group/buddy. Did I mentioned this was before underwater pressure gauges, BC vest, Octopus rigs were even invented. We used a "J" valve which gave you a reserve of air. When the air became harder to breath (about 500 psi) you pulled the rod on the side of your tank, signaled your buddy and started your ascent. Once top side you blew up your war surplus "Mae West" turned on your back and kicked you way back to the dive boat.

Using this method of training, the club certified about 300 divers. None of the members were ever lost in a diving accident (bar room brawls were a different story). The instructor changed to the PADI program later on and lost a student on a check out dive in a fresh water spring, but after the student had completed the check dive. The instructor hung up his fins and never taught another class. Speaking of fins I still use the Black Scubapro Jet Fin. Later on I did purchase a horse collar BC vest and now I use a BC back pack and finally added an octopus to my Poseidon Cyklon 5000 just a few years ago.




Edited by - L. Keith on Mar 12 2010 08:03:10

Homeport: N. Gulf of Mexico Go to Top of Page

Dive1

RO# 31856

Posted - Apr 05 2010 :  10:49:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
L.Kieth,

You must have been trained by the same people that I took training from. You were taught (and I teach) "Don't depend on you Buddy, if you are out of air, what makes you think he has more and that he will let you take it?"
Dive1
NAUI 9710#



Homeport: Discovery Bay, Ca Go to Top of Page

Capt. Bill1

RO# 2017

Posted - Apr 05 2010 :  15:02:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"Concerning dive computers. Have you ever seen a commercial diver use a computer? You never will."

I believe they often do, it's just topside. :-)

But commercial dives are normally to fixed depths for fixed times. So a dive computer is of no real valve in those cases. In the case of recreational diving, a computer can be well worth it's cost in extra time underwater. And that is what you are paying for on a dive trip.



Homeport: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale Go to Top of Page

Ghost

RO# 689



Posted - Apr 05 2010 :  20:04:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You actually teach "don't depend on your buddy" and come here and want to look people square in the eye and claim you are looking out for their best interest?

YGTBFKM.

Have I ever been solo in the water. You bet. Have I ever rather been diving alone than with some numnuts on a cattle boat who was probably trained by some joker who teaches such crap. Yeah, sure. Have I ever refused to go in the water because of the dumbed down mentality of the people on the boat? Absolutely.

That said, the ONLY thing that has gotten both me and my buddies out of the water in what otherwise would have been a real pickle WAS having a good buddy. Somebody trained well and knows what to do on instinct. If something goes wrong on a dive, there is one tool that can get you out of it. Anybody? Here's a hint. It's fuzzy grey, located between your ears and for the bulk of the folks out there who teach for PADI/NAUI or 100% of any person who ever decided to be a divemaster to be cool, you will find that they can come in extra extra small.

When I read crud about "what makes you think he has more and will let you take it", I want to shoot myself. Ya gots to be kidding me. Truly, nobody could every be THAT stupid could they?

Here's how I know. Because when we get in the water, we bring discipline. If we run out of gas, its because something broke, some kind of failure. It's inconcievable that my gas AND your gas is out. Not going to happen. Not with my crew its not. If that's the sort of thing that can happen to you, well that's your own error. I know my buddy is going to shove his reg in my mouth if I so much as look at him or her funny. I know that, because we practice that very thing EVERY single dive. It's automatic. If I have some sort of gas failure, my buddy is going to kick into action and get me headed toward the exit door. He's going to take control and not let me task load the situation into something more. I'm going to have the benefit of two brains on the problem and likely free me to figure out the options for correcting the problem while the other brain helps to get us out of harms way. When it really counts, there is nothing in the water so effective as having a good buddy. I'd never do a big dive without a buddy I trust.

If you don't dive this way, its your choice. Sure there are idiots out there you don't want to be in the water with. But that's a choice. One which you get to make, every single dive. Here's a thought. You don't have to go diving unless the factors are in your favor and in your control. I've exercised option 1 many times. I won't put myself or another person in danger willingly.

...and if you guys think that commercial divers only dive navy tables, well, you have to be joking me. Sorry, but I KNOW some commercial guys who have the deco figured out, and its not navy tables and its not shared with others. That's competetive advantage. But a commercial diver does not worry so much, does not have to always get it perfect, because if you do decompression for a living you bring a chamber with you. You can test the limits a bit, because you are getting into that chamber and you can fix things. No can do for the recreational crowd. The most we get to play with the limits is a little flirting with skin bends. Nothing like an itchy case of the niggles to find the limits with.

Sorry, but you guys with the "diving without a buddy" mentality, well no way do I believe that you have ever really BEEN THERE. Because those of us that have will tell you that we'll take a good buddy any day of the week. I've said before that I have dealt with groggy passing out divers (bad gas), dealt with broken masks deeper than most of you have even considered to go. My team has dealt with torn exposure suits, in 48 degree water, in 2 knots of current, in the shipping lane, at over 200 feet. We have had perfect outcomes in each situation. Wanna guess what we think about a good buddy?

You guys want to continue with amateur hour, put yourself in danger, go ahead. But don't come here and recommend this silly crud to others who might just buy it. Keep the dangerous stuff to yourself. Diving is about basics. Well honed, disciplined, simple basics. Gas management, air sharing, buoyancy and trim. People who have not been there think that its about some fancy decompression or something. Decompression is easy. The hard part is having the discipline and trim to execute it without getting mixed up while bored over the course of an hour or more. The figuring out part is so easy is stupid and I don't need any compter to do it. All those computers are all using the same basic MODEL originated by Buhlman/Workman many years ago. Any alterations are just small multiplication factors thrown in under the basic idea that "more is better", which in itself is just plain wrong, especially if you dive in cold temps. Oh...and the model is just that, a model. It's imperfect. So, go ahead and run day 5 on the model and believe whatever it tells you, because you are so far beyond the actualy physiology at that point, you could throw a dart at the board and come up with just as relevant of numbers. But you redneck engineering PADI trained dive geeks who are so impressed by the calculators but have absolutely no idea why crowd just read the stuff off the dial as if it were gospel. Unbelievable. You won't find a professional commerical or military diver anywhere in the world who would pull that kind of stunt even WITH a chamber at hand.

In short...it all goes to prove just how far from reality the dive world has gone. No brain, no pain. No clue and don't want one.

Two thirds of the population will only get a little rash when they take it too far, 90% of the other third will never push the limits any way. The remaining group will be fighing for the ability to not piss through a straw for the rest of their lives on a table six, all the while chanting some crap about "undeserved hit", or being "too dehydrated" or some other simpleton analysis. But trust me, its a lot better to be sitting in the chamber completely unawares as to what is actually happening to you, than to be in there on the third extension without relief, knowing full well what happened to you and why your legs stopped working just how close to the edge you came and still wonder what comes next. Terror is seeing the bubbles coursing through your arteries just by looking through your left eye. Anger is having some redneck engineered simpleton PADI geek asking "What did you do wrong?", under the fully blind assumption that the model is somehow fully accurate.

Still, none of that scares me even close to the thought of murderous kind of classes that must be given by an instructor #9710 from NAUI.

Luckily I'm in a good mood today. Usually I don't respond well to idiots preaching dangerous crud to the uninformed.



What part of GALE WARNING did you not understand?

Homeport: Everett Wa Go to Top of Page

Capt. Bill1

RO# 2017

Posted - Apr 05 2010 :  22:18:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"You actually teach "don't depend on your buddy" and come here and want to look people square in the eye and claim you are looking out for their best interest?

YGTBFKM.

Have I ever been solo in the water. You bet. Have I ever rather been diving alone than with some numnuts on a cattle boat who was probably trained by some joker who teaches such crap. Yeah, sure. Have I ever refused to go in the water because of the dumbed down mentality of the people on the boat? Absolutely."

So you dive solo but criticize those who preach self-reliance!?

You can't have it both ways.

A properly trained buddy team is always the best way to dive. But you just admitted that is not always possible.

"When I read crud about "what makes you think he has more and will let you take it", I want to shoot myself. Ya gots to be kidding me. Truly, nobody could every be THAT stupid could they?"

Well, based on your statement above it sounds like you were at times. Because you admit to diving with less than well trained divers from time to time. So did you really think these "numnuts" would do the right thing at the right moment? Or did you make a mental note to self to be sure you could CYOA and be self-reliant?

And of course a computer is not doing anything magical, but most people aren't doing the kind of diving that lends itself to doing the calcs on the fly and most people aren't doing true deco diving.

Of course it all just based on models. But, as you pointed out, those models have been shown to be safe for the majority of people if they followed them correctly. In fact it's easy enough to modify them to account for the factors of age, water temp. etc. Some computers you can plug those factors in and run a more conservative table. Poo pooing people using dive computers is silly. While more information is a good thing, the way most people dive, they don't really need to fully know how a dive computer works any more than you need to know exactly how a GPS works to use it safely. They just need to understand the limits and limitations of both devices.




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