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Chevy427z

RO# 11911

Posted - Dec 07 2010 :  07:29:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Howdy fellow divers :-)

Been a while since I've posted in here. Hope everyone is well and enjoying the holiday season.

I've been diving for 35 years, got certified by PADI in 1975.

I've recently volunteered with a local rescue squad as a diver and have been taking some new certifications through SSI (Scuba Schools International) I am going through them simply because that's what the local dive shop offers. Side note: they want me to become an instructor at some point.

So anyhow, as I have been "out of the loop" for a while regarding training, does anyone have an opinion on the differences in training between the "big 3"? PADI, NAUI, and SSI?

We dove a wreck off of Wrightsville Beach NC two weekends ago. I love living down here LOL Left NY 12 years ago and never looked back. Diving again this weekend on a training mission.

Hope everyone is keeping warm!

Mark
1989 23' Arrowglass Merc 350/260 Alpha 1 I/O "Valkyrie"
"Don't try to outweird me, three eyes. I get stranger things than you in my breakfast cereal."

Homeport: Oak Island, NC

rnbenton

RO# 31163



Posted - Dec 07 2010 :  07:46:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I got my original dive certification in 1965 with NAUI and 1966 got my Advanced rating with PADI. But my Rescue Diver and Dive-Con (combination dive master and asst. instructor) are with SSI, 1971 and 1972.

Personally, I think it is just a matter of convenience, which one your local shop uses. I think the information and training is pretty much the same for all of the current certifying agencies. I personally like SSI but would have no qualms at all about going with PADI, NAUI or any of the others.

Bob


Key West 196 Bay Reef, 150 Yamaha
USCG 50 Ton MMC, Tow Assist Endorsement
SSI Certified Instructor Level 1


Edited by - rnbenton on Dec 07 2010 07:47:08

Homeport: Palm Coast, FL Go to Top of Page

MikeeH

RO# 6342



Posted - Dec 07 2010 :  08:25:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yep, I'll go with what Bob said. I got mine through NAUI because that's what my local dive shop offered. They try to give you reasons why one is better than the other but I think it all comes down to your actual instructor, your ability to retain the info and your experience after certification. The science doesn't change due to the organization that issues the card.

Mike

I recently realized that at this stage of my life I'm now wise enough to know better, but old enough not to give a damn.

Homeport: Still Pond, MD Go to Top of Page

spj

RO# 31662

Posted - Dec 07 2010 :  08:55:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For the most part, I agree with Mike and Bob. The big exception is if you plan on becoming an instructor. PADI has more dive shops then all other agencies combined. If you plan on moving it will be much easier to find a job as a PADI instructor.

That being said, do not become an instructor to make alot of money, it is not going to happen!



Homeport: nj Go to Top of Page

Chevy427z

RO# 11911

Posted - Dec 07 2010 :  08:59:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the input gents. That's what I was hoping to hear. I agree that so much has to do with indvidual instructors, and that each orginization is going to say that "their's is better". Been so long that I've taken any formal training that I was suprised to see how SSI broke everything down into little tiny catagories. Do PADI and NAUI do that now, too?

That's what I'm shooting for right now Bob "Dive-con". I'm taking the Nitrox course right now and Stress and Rescue up next.

Thanks again gents!

Mark


1989 23' Arrowglass Merc 350/260 Alpha 1 I/O "Valkyrie"
"Don't try to outweird me, three eyes. I get stranger things than you in my breakfast cereal."

Homeport: Oak Island, NC Go to Top of Page

Chevy427z

RO# 11911

Posted - Dec 07 2010 :  09:16:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi SPJ! Missed your comment before I posted. The only way I would change careers from machinist to full time dive instructor is if I could find something on the beach in the Caribbean LOL Good to have dreams :-) I love to teach, just about anything, and get great satisfaction from the looks of wonder and amazement when a student "gets it" and the joy they get out of it. I would do it for the sheer enjoyment :-)

Mark


1989 23' Arrowglass Merc 350/260 Alpha 1 I/O "Valkyrie"
"Don't try to outweird me, three eyes. I get stranger things than you in my breakfast cereal."

Homeport: Oak Island, NC Go to Top of Page

rnbenton

RO# 31163



Posted - Dec 07 2010 :  09:36:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chevy427z

That's what I'm shooting for right now Bob "Dive-con". I'm taking the Nitrox course right now and Stress and Rescue up next.


I think you will find that you learn more praticle use knowledge from your Stress & Rescue course than all the others combined including "Dive-Con". Dive-Con goes much deeper into dive physiology, gas laws and theory. Sress & Rescue is aimed much more to actual, in water, situations and dealing with stress and panic; both of others and your own. It also goes into much more detail about handling emergency situations, again, both or your own and of others.

Most excellent course that I wish every diver would take. IMHO it would save a lot of lives.

As for working, it's true that in the past a PADI shop would only hire PADI certified people. Not so much any more. Back in '72 I worked in a PADI shop even though my Dive-Con C Card was SSI. My local shop has both PADI and SSI instructors. Actually, for a lot of shops now, instructors are like independant contractor. But, as someone else also said, there ain't a lot of money in it but you do get to work in some damn nice places. I have a nephew who is currently working as a Dive Master in St. Maarten. "sigh"

Bob


Key West 196 Bay Reef, 150 Yamaha
USCG 50 Ton MMC, Tow Assist Endorsement
SSI Certified Instructor Level 1


Homeport: Palm Coast, FL Go to Top of Page

Ghost

RO# 689



Posted - Dec 07 2010 :  10:16:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Can you be more specific as to what differences would matter to you? Are you looking for the most thorough? Are you looking for the most homogenous class structure? How bout the one with the least requirements?

PADI likely wins the game of the least requirements. You can be an instructor with PADI with nothing more than 100 dives under your belt (rank beginner level), and it is not uncommon for a PADI instructor to be completing their required 100 dives as part of the course. PADI also has a rather demonstrated experience in ensuring that students that pay their money, get their cards. What his boils down to is that you essentially teach the skills they want taught, the way they want them taught in a way that ensures students only achieve the most minimum of their skills and restricts an instructors ability to demand more proficiency. If you are teaching in a more demanding part of the world, this may be a problem for you if you want to ensure your students are leaving with skills that are matched to the minimum skills needed to be able to survive the local environment.

SSI is more flexible than PADI but may not be as recognized worldwide. This won't be a huge problem for most.

NAUI is a mixed bag for me. I know some instructors who were allowed the lattitude to teach what they thought was needed under NAUI. I also know some instructors who got away with some pretty bad stuff as well. I guess this is truly the "instructor matters most" agency.

If I owned a business, being a PADI shop would make the most sense, since that way I could certify the most people, cheaply, and the program is structured so that I don't have to worry about my instructors raising my expenses since the course boxes them into a very consistently low quality program. But carry really really good insurance because in my opinion, the skills that PADI teaches are vastly insufficient. The PADI model is really a resort model, where "graduates" are assumed to conduct themselves in groups surpervised by divemasters, while diving in easy warm water conditions with great visibility and in depths of around 20 feet. In my part of the world, this model does not work. Our cold water often suffers from poor visibility, currents and other hazards. Poorly skilled divers routinely lose sight of one another and an OOA situation for new divers, finding themselves scared and working harder than they expected is not uncommon. It's also not uncommon that new and moderately experienced divers find that their skills being insufficient, did not serve them when they need them most. We are lucky when the outcome is simply a scared single diver thrashing on the surface calling for help. Sadly, the outcome is usually a scared, thrashing buddy on the shore crying about having lost their (best friend, wife, buddy, husband, dive master), followed by a short recovery exercise which has an uncanny habit of finding the missing person mere yards away in water less than 50 foot deep. New divers are simply in a race to gain enough experience to survive their first 100 dives and hopefully along the way, develop the expertise they were never provided by their instructor.

So, while I don't believe that any of the current agency's provide sufficient training, I'll single out PADI for having the distinction of also getting in the way of the very very few instructors who want to teach over and above their curriculum requirements (the ones that actually became an instructor with a full log book and did not start the instructor course with 60 dives).

Sorry, I probably can't contribute much more because I'm too passionate about the subject. I've just seen one too many corpses and its my opinion that PADI is responsible for them. It happens a lot more often than most people realize and you don't want it happening on your watch.

For those who got their cards years ago, be aware that the class styles of today are vastly different and severely dumbed down versions from the prior era.


What part of GALE WARNING did you not understand?

Homeport: Everett Wa Go to Top of Page

spj

RO# 31662

Posted - Dec 07 2010 :  11:19:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry to disagee with you ghost.

While some of what you say is true, not all of it is by any means. It is in any shop owners best interest to get thier students certified, it does not matter if they are PADI, NAUI, or SSI. If you do not certify students, you do not have divers, even worse if you put students in a class then "fail" them you get a bed reputation.

Yes PADI requires 100 dives to become an instructor, NAUI require 50 dives.

YEs PADI requires that you teach the skills they want taught, and taught the way they want them taught. Where is the down side to that? PADI Open water divers are taught a very specific set of skills. They are also taught that any dives they do after that should be in similar conditions to thier open water dives. (IE do not do check out dives if warm clear water, then expect to go dive the north east, in cold, limited visability.)

They are told many many times, continuing education is the way to expand you experince. You may not like the business model, but it that is a different story. I have been a PADI instructor for 15 years, when my students are done, they know what thier limitations are, both from what they are certified for, and what I see from them. I have told students when they are not ready for Open Water they need more pool time. I have also taken students that have finished open water, to dive trips off the jersey coast for supervised boat dives. It depends on the student.

PADI has never stood in my way of making sure that I certify divers that are well trained. They also try to make sure that every diver is given the same set of skills.

One area we both agree with, is that mosy courses do not provide sufficient training. But if they want to stay in business (Not only the Agency, but the shops as well) they must provide a service that the public will buy. In today mindset, I do not think many customers would sign up for a open water course if we told them it is going to take you 16 weeks of class and pool work before you can go diving.

I tell my students, Open Water teaches you how to use the gear, when you are done class you have to learn to dive, either with a good dive buddy or by taking more classes.

And yes those who got thier cards years ago, got a whole different education then the ones that do it today! For the most part, the in water skills have stayed the same. The only thing that I can think of that has been removed from in water skills, is buddy breathing/sharinga regulator.








Homeport: nj Go to Top of Page

Chevy427z

RO# 11911

Posted - Dec 07 2010 :  11:30:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Your passion is obvious and it's nice to see.

Interesting to read your take on the PADI course because it seemed to me that no one was taking it as serious (or teaching it as thoroughly) as my instructors did way back when. I just chalked it up to the way things were in this day and age of hustle and bustle, maximizing profits the quickest possible way, while losing sight of the original objective: training properly and thoroughly. Courses seem far abbreviated from what they once were (for the above reasons it seems to me anyhow). I remember my training to be very long, intense, vigorous, and no one graduated who was remotely "iffy". No disrespect to properly run "resort certifications" but most of them always worried me as being far too superficial. That may be with how I am perceiving SSI's curriculum; everything being broken down into little bits (and you take what you want) as opposed to "learning everything there was to know". Granted, some of it isn't really necessary (as in: someone who just wants to visit coral reefs in 40 feet, doesn't need cave diving training, etc)

Ultimately, what's important to me, as I suspect would be with most conscientious divers is safety and a thorough knowledge of the subject.

Mark


1989 23' Arrowglass Merc 350/260 Alpha 1 I/O "Valkyrie"
"Don't try to outweird me, three eyes. I get stranger things than you in my breakfast cereal."

Homeport: Oak Island, NC Go to Top of Page

Chevy427z

RO# 11911

Posted - Dec 07 2010 :  12:48:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dang SPJ, your posts only appear after mine do LOL Very nicely said about continuing education. I'm a pilot, too, and it's said that that certificate is a license to learn, not a statement that I know it all. That training, too, is a lot about the relationship between instructor and student. I was fortunate enough to hook up with good ones very early on.

And yeah, I was a little disappointed that I had to add an octopus rig to my old stand by US Divers regulator :)

You sound like the kind of instructor I would have gotten along well with :-)


1989 23' Arrowglass Merc 350/260 Alpha 1 I/O "Valkyrie"
"Don't try to outweird me, three eyes. I get stranger things than you in my breakfast cereal."

Homeport: Oak Island, NC Go to Top of Page

rnbenton

RO# 31163



Posted - Dec 07 2010 :  12:56:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chevy427z

No disrespect to properly run "resort certifications" but most of them always worried me as being far too superficial.


Well, this statement may upset some but I'm going to make it anyway. The term "properly run resort certification" is a complete and total oxymoron. Those programs are little more than a sham and dangerous to boot. Doing little more than teaching a student how to assemble and put on the gear then stick his underwater and take a few breaths and then taking them out into open water, no matter what the depth, is totally irresponsible.

The only other thing that dive operators do that approaches that level of irresponsibility are shark feeding dives.

Bob



Key West 196 Bay Reef, 150 Yamaha
USCG 50 Ton MMC, Tow Assist Endorsement
SSI Certified Instructor Level 1


Edited by - rnbenton on Dec 07 2010 12:58:31

Homeport: Palm Coast, FL Go to Top of Page

Chevy427z

RO# 11911

Posted - Dec 07 2010 :  13:04:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Completely understandable Bob.

I chose my words carefully, having never experienced one myself and not fully knowing how deeply they got into the training, that was my perception as well. I had hoped that I was wrong.

Mark


1989 23' Arrowglass Merc 350/260 Alpha 1 I/O "Valkyrie"
"Don't try to outweird me, three eyes. I get stranger things than you in my breakfast cereal."

Homeport: Oak Island, NC Go to Top of Page

MikeeH

RO# 6342



Posted - Dec 07 2010 :  13:12:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, just to add a couple of points, one a fact and another a simple observation/opinion.

PADI started as, and has always been a "for profit" company. NAUI is a non-profit. I'm not sure about any others. I don't know if that explains some of the differences or not.

Now, the observation/opinion. I'm not sure which resort programs you are each refering to, but I assume you are talking about those "certify you in between little umbrella drinks while you're here at Coco Loco All Inclusive Beach and Booze Resort" type courses. Never been to one and don't know anyone who has, thank God! I did, however, go on an "introductory beach dive" in St. Thomas many years ago. It amounted to about 30 minutes of instruction on the beach followed by 20 minutes of a closely monitored and limited 15' dive off the beach. No certifications were promised, implied or expected. It did, however, light a fire and opened my eyes to the SCUBA experience. I will never forget my excitment when I came out of the water that morning. That dive got me started and I appreciate that opportunity.


Mike

I recently realized that at this stage of my life I'm now wise enough to know better, but old enough not to give a damn.

Homeport: Still Pond, MD Go to Top of Page

rnbenton

RO# 31163



Posted - Dec 07 2010 :  13:40:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've actually been involved in a few "Resort" SCUBA programs. The last one was in Bonaire. The "divers" were taken to a pool and pool side were shown how to assemble and put on the equipment. Once the equipment was on they "walked" into the pool and held their heads underwater for 10 minutes to "acclimate" to breathing underwater.

From there they walked directly to the beach for a shore dive on a 30' reef. It should be noted that about 100' to 150' past the little reef was a drop off that went down to about 250'.

All in all there were about 20 "divers" and one dive master. I tagged along because I knew one of the students.

The very next day I saw some of those same divers doing unsupervised shore dives around the island.

Like I said, irresponsible and dangerous.

Bob


Key West 196 Bay Reef, 150 Yamaha
USCG 50 Ton MMC, Tow Assist Endorsement
SSI Certified Instructor Level 1


Edited by - rnbenton on Dec 07 2010 13:42:08

Homeport: Palm Coast, FL Go to Top of Page

Chevy427z

RO# 11911

Posted - Dec 07 2010 :  17:16:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Great discussion gentlemen! Thank you very much! I'll be back as I progress through SSI's program :-) And to check up on further discussions :-)

Bob: "yikes"


Mark


1989 23' Arrowglass Merc 350/260 Alpha 1 I/O "Valkyrie"
"Don't try to outweird me, three eyes. I get stranger things than you in my breakfast cereal."

Homeport: Oak Island, NC Go to Top of Page

Ghost

RO# 689



Posted - Dec 07 2010 :  18:45:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was a little worried when I came back to the thread this afternoon that my downer post was going to divebomb what I hoped would somehow still turnout to be a decent thread. I'm pretty happy with the way it went and think most people can read the reality in the differing opinions.

Please just understand that while my opinion may look a bit extreme, its the product of having to clean up other peoples messes and remember that we are talking about the kind of "oops" from which you don't get to otherwise apologize or try harder the next time. This isn't just some kind of armchair quarterbacking style opinion made from a safe distance.

Hope you all understand. The last time a friend or family member asked me about getting certified, I told them to choose the cheapest course they could find, because it would not matter. They were not going to learn what they needed to survive from any course on the market today. Fine, because if its a friend or family member, their real training is going to start once they have the certification in hand and I'm going to be the one showing them what it really means when I tell them that they better take care because I'm pretty sure they can't breathe water. After lesson one, I won't worry so much that they still need to get their mind right. Lesson one is easy. I take you to 15-20 feet, at some point without warning I'm going to rip your mask off, rip the regulator out of your mouth and leave you to make quick decisive smart decisions for the rest of the session. Maybe 1 in ten people coming out of a PADI course today will be able to handle that situation. The rest will require saving. You tell me what percentage of the diving population you think should be able to fix the above problem statement every single time to merit being "certified". Personally I'd say 100%, but then I'm just that kind of ogre when it comes to keeping peope alive.


What part of GALE WARNING did you not understand?

Homeport: Everett Wa Go to Top of Page

rnbenton

RO# 31163



Posted - Dec 07 2010 :  18:58:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ghost, in the matter of the inadequacy of current Open Water Certification programs I totally agree with you. That's why I always recommend students to get their Advanced and then Stress & Rescue as soon as they can.

The Stress & Rescue is worth its weight in gold. It teaches you how to handle emergency, stress and panic situations, both someone elses as well as your own.

Bob


Key West 196 Bay Reef, 150 Yamaha
USCG 50 Ton MMC, Tow Assist Endorsement
SSI Certified Instructor Level 1


Edited by - rnbenton on Dec 07 2010 19:00:00

Homeport: Palm Coast, FL Go to Top of Page

spj

RO# 31662

Posted - Dec 08 2010 :  06:19:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ghost

I was a little worried when I came back to the thread this afternoon that my downer post was going to divebomb what I hoped would somehow still turnout to be a decent thread. I'm pretty happy with the way it went and think most people can read the reality in the differing opinions.



Well I thought it was turning out to be a good post with no dive bombing until your reply!

quote:
Originally posted by Ghost



Fine, because if itís a friend or family member, their real training is going to start once they have the certification in hand and I'm going to be the one showing them what it really means when I tell them that they better take care because I'm pretty sure they can't breathe water. After lesson one, I won't worry so much that they still need to get their mind right. Lesson one is easy. I take you to 15-20 feet, at some point without warning I'm going to rip your mask off, rip the regulator out of your mouth and leave you to make quick decisive smart decisions for the rest of the session. Maybe 1 in ten people coming out of a PADI course today will be able to handle that situation. The rest will require saving. You tell me what percentage of the diving population you think should be able to fix the above problem statement every single time to merit being "certified". Personally I'd say 100%, but then I'm just that kind of ogre when it comes to keeping peope alive.



DO NOT EVERY COME OUT ON A DIVE BOAT THAT I AM RUNNING!

I know in your heart and mind you have there best interest, but your first lesson is putting someone at risk for little or no benefit.

To compare it to Chevy427z Pilot training, it would be like shooting off the rudder of a new pilots plane, just to make sure they know how to react.

As it has been stated, open water training is not the end of a divers education only the beginning.

Most of the time when I see problems with divers, it falls in to one of two extremes. The first being new divers (less then 5 dives, after checkout). The second is from very experienced divers, and I am talking hundreds if not thousands of dives.

Of the fatal dives I am personally aware of they have always been the more experienced divers.




Homeport: nj Go to Top of Page

MikeeH

RO# 6342



Posted - Dec 08 2010 :  07:06:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
During my training in the pool we were required to take off all our gear, drop it in the deep end and then go down, retrieve and don everything before returning to the surface. In our open water dive we had to remove our masks and regs, drop them so they were hanging free and then replace them as well as other "emergeny" dive skills. I'm not sure how I would have reacted if someone suddenly ripped of my mask and reg without warning while on my first dive after certification but I can assure you that it would not be pretty once we returned to the surface. New divers need to gather experience, not "experiences" that can end their new love of the sport because someone of "authority" took it upon themselve to put their lives in perceived jeopardy and scared the crap out of them as some sort of teaching moment.

Mike

I recently realized that at this stage of my life I'm now wise enough to know better, but old enough not to give a damn.

Homeport: Still Pond, MD Go to Top of Page

spj

RO# 31662

Posted - Dec 08 2010 :  08:07:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mike,

I think you are showing you age, or at least how long ago you were certified. I do not think any agency requires you to drop your gear in the deep end and then retrieve and don it anymore.

As far as the mask removal and regulator recover I know PADI still does that both in the pool and in open water. They also require you to remove and replace your scuba unit at the bottom of the pool and at the surface. They also require you to swim without you mask, I believe it is 25 feet. But they are all planned skills with the student doing the removing.

I agree the method that ghost describes, will simply scare divers away from the sport.



Homeport: nj Go to Top of Page

Padraig

RO# 4792

Posted - Dec 08 2010 :  09:59:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some people need to be scared away from the sport.

Padraig

Homeport: Western NY Go to Top of Page

Chevy427z

RO# 11911

Posted - Dec 08 2010 :  10:03:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I enjoyed the "ditch and don" excersize, but then again I enjoyed spin recovery training, too LOL I don't know if SSI includes that, but will definitely be asking about it. I think it's a great way to tell how comfortable someone is in the water, at some depth.

My bro-in-law (and dive buddy a few years back) was trained by a group of self proclaimed "para military" types who used methods as ghost describes. Always made me a little aprehensive. I have to agree that that kind of training would scare more than a few off, but I do see his point. Strongly agree with Mike re: the surface confrontation afterwards, would not be pretty.

Coincidentally about accidents, it happens in flying, too. New pilots are, VERY generally speaking, alert to everything, and less apt to make mistakes/take chances. More accidents tend to be related to the complacency/over confidence of longer time pilots (between the zone of freshly minted to long time experience).

Mark


1989 23' Arrowglass Merc 350/260 Alpha 1 I/O "Valkyrie"
"Don't try to outweird me, three eyes. I get stranger things than you in my breakfast cereal."

Homeport: Oak Island, NC Go to Top of Page

Ghost

RO# 689



Posted - Dec 08 2010 :  11:27:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If I upset you, then I assume its because your instinctive reaction was that most of the divers being produced could not handle the simple situation I posed.

You think that having a mask ripped off and losing a regulator is "advanced" skills? It's not and I'm a little dissapointed that you think so. Nothing could be more basic. The likelyhood of this happening in real life is there. Its not an infrequent occurance either, especially among new divers. One simple way it happens is with one inadvertant kick of a fin in someone's face, and suddenly you can neither see or breathe.

Mask skills in today's class are insufficient. In a real life scenario of a fin to the face and losing both mask and reg knocked over their shoulder, at least 4 out of 10 would fail to simply put the regulator back in their mouth. Think about that! Tell me again these people are safe to dive. Tell me that if this was a close friend or family whether you would leave them to accumulate these critical skills on their own.

No person should be allowed to graduate any diving class without the simple and automatic skill of finding and putting a regulator back in their mouth.

Gentleman, we should be better than this. You really need to think about what you are doing to the families of these people before you simply continue to take their money and worry about the feelings of good people who are going to be upset that the realities of diving are not exactly that which is posted on the signs.

There is a lot more at stake here than just getting your feelings hurt.

As an instructor. As a professional. It doesn't mean a hill of beans what the agency, or any one else says. If you are letting students graduate without the most basic skill of putting air back into their mouths in a stressful situation, you are shirking your responsibilities. Try explaining the lack of agency standards to a court and make them believe you had no choice but to graduate the students. Worse yet, try explaining it to a loved one.


What part of GALE WARNING did you not understand?

Homeport: Everett Wa Go to Top of Page

rnbenton

RO# 31163



Posted - Dec 08 2010 :  11:53:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chevy427z

I don't know if SSI includes that, but will definitely be asking about it.


I don't know about today, but in the past BCD removel and donning, complete mask removal, donning and clearing as well as regulator removal, replacing and clearing are required during the open water check dive.

As far as I know buddy breathing is no longer taught. In all of my classes I taught alternate air source (octapus) sharing and ascent but that is usually part of the advanced cirriculum. At least that's how it was last time I taught.

Back in the 70's there was a saying: "Sit a dead man in a chair in the middle of a dive shop and someone will certify him, sell him a set of equipment and book him on a dive trip."

The pressures a Dive Instructor feels to get everyone certified doesn't come from the certifying agency. It comes from the local shop he works through. Unless the diver passes the course and gets certified, they don't spend any money. In the years I worked and taught, I only had one student I couldn't get through the course. As it turns out he had a sinus deformity he was un aware of and simply, physically could not clear his ears. Other than that, all it took was a little extra time, patience and making it all as fun as possible while still making sure the diver had the basic skills necessary to use as a foundation for further learning and experience gaining.

Bob


Key West 196 Bay Reef, 150 Yamaha
USCG 50 Ton MMC, Tow Assist Endorsement
SSI Certified Instructor Level 1


Edited by - rnbenton on Dec 08 2010 11:59:45

Homeport: Palm Coast, FL Go to Top of Page

MikeeH

RO# 6342



Posted - Dec 08 2010 :  12:34:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ghost,
First, speaking for myself, you did not "upset" me with your post. Neither did I indicate "that having a mask ripped off and losing a regulator is advanced skills"; in fact, I didn't see that in anyone's response. So, it seems you're reading far more into this than what has been posted. For the record, I disagree that ripping the mask and regulator off of a new diver as "lesson one" (your words) is a good introduction to the sport. Frankly, scaring the **** of of a brand new diver is not a form of instruction that anyone I know who effectively teaches anthing at all would prescribe to. Not even in my military training did I experience or witness anything like that. That's not teaching, its testing and no one gets tested without be first forewarned that a test is coming. What's next, are you going to sneak up behind a new diver and poke them with your knife in order to teach them not to touch the live coral? Bit their fingers to teach them about moray's???


Mike

I recently realized that at this stage of my life I'm now wise enough to know better, but old enough not to give a damn.

Homeport: Still Pond, MD Go to Top of Page

Ghost

RO# 689



Posted - Dec 08 2010 :  13:53:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure who is reading too much where, but I'm glad I'm not upseting you. I'm just inferring that if any of us think that a freshly certified diver should not be ready to handle such a drill with ease then it must be assumed to be an advanced skill that would not belong in a basic level class.

I said nothing about not informing the diver precisely what was going to happen at some point on the dive. I simply said that the timing was going to be unexpected. Performing this skill in a controlled circle of kneeling divers to show the method the first time is fine, but that is by far insufficient to serve as the height of the course requirement.


What part of GALE WARNING did you not understand?

Homeport: Everett Wa Go to Top of Page

November Charlie

RO# 824

Posted - Dec 09 2010 :  16:24:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
While PADI certainly does have that reputation (I won't get into whether it is earned or not), I believe it has much more to do with the instructor - and the shop - than the certifying agency. I was certified by a NAUI instructor - to this day I have never dove in a pool. Shallow dives were done in a shallow part of the harbor. He is in New England, and teaches people to dive in New England. More than once, a dive started with all of our gear in 10 feet of water while we were still on the boat. Ditch and don was very big, as was reg and mask retrieval/clearing. He generally did give some warning before pulling most people's masks, but I was 'that guy' in the class that he liked to pick on (for good cause). When I proved I was comfortable enough with that skill by starting to just take his mask when he took mine and use that, he was satisfied. One of the shallow sessions in the harbor started with "Mike, you want to go check the anchor? Your gear should be right next to it."

The mask thing IS that important - as was already mentioned, the fin to the face thing happens, and a lot of people panic when their mask gets displaced.


My signature line is cooler than your signature line.

Homeport: Northwest Go to Top of Page

L. Keith

RO# 1615

Posted - Dec 09 2010 :  17:22:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not one of the experts on here have mentioned a Free Ascent as part of dive training. My certification process, in the 1960's before there were alphabet companies with their marketing programs, the Mississippi Menfish Club required that you successfully complete a free ascent from 50'. That was in addition to the one hour tread water with your hands above your head and the one mile swim, in open salt water. Not to mention repetitive dive tables. BC's were not even invented, you used a WWII surplus Mae West life vest if you got into a bind.

We were required to watch a US Navy dive training film, where a full dress diver descended to quickly and his body was crammed up into his Mark V hard hat. Only a pair of feet were sticking out of the hat when the tender removed the hat from the breast plate.



Edited by - L. Keith on Dec 09 2010 17:29:43

Homeport: N. Gulf of Mexico Go to Top of Page

Chevy427z

RO# 11911

Posted - Dec 10 2010 :  09:38:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by November Charlie

"Mike, you want to go check the anchor? Your gear should be right next to it."




Love it Mike ;-)

editted: I got certified in Nitrox last night. That was new and interesting. I bet we could get a good discussion going on that, too LOL

Stress and rescue tonight, tomorrow, and Sunday. We're diving in an abandoned granite quarry that's been set up as a diver's paradise :-)


1989 23' Arrowglass Merc 350/260 Alpha 1 I/O "Valkyrie"
"Don't try to outweird me, three eyes. I get stranger things than you in my breakfast cereal."

Edited by - Chevy427z on Dec 10 2010 09:43:29

Homeport: Oak Island, NC Go to Top of Page

Capt. Bill1

RO# 2017

Posted - Dec 13 2010 :  18:45:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by November Charlie

While PADI certainly does have that reputation (I won't get into whether it is earned or not), I believe it has much more to do with the instructor - and the shop - than the certifying agency.



I tend to agree with Mike here. While a PADI course might not be my first choice, I've seen lousy divers from all agencies.

A good hard nosed, caring and patient instructor makes all the difference.




Homeport: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale Go to Top of Page

Silver Lining

RO# 29390



Posted - Dec 14 2010 :  15:51:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I got NAUI certified in the 1970's as a teenager. Excellent course that took several weeks to complete. Back then recreational divers did not have pressure gauges, octopusses or BCs. I remember our checkout dive was at Anacapa Island off the CA coast. We were abalone diving and had a hawaiian sling. I was down at 50-55 feet and ran out of air, as was common back then, so I pulled my J valave and nothing happens. Did a 50 ft emergency ascent with no problem. Having executed that skill without complication during my check out dive made me a much better and confident diver. From time to time I practice similar free ascents although not as deep. I think this is an essential skill although not as frequently needed as retrieving mask or regulator while in the water. This is also a very important skill if one does any solo diving.

-Rick

Viking Sport Cruiser 50 FY
"Silver Lining"


-Rick

Viking Sport Cruiser 50FY
"Silver Lining"

Homeport: Chesapeake, MD Go to Top of Page

November Charlie

RO# 824

Posted - Dec 14 2010 :  17:02:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This thread made me think about reg retrieval - if I don't have full range of motion by next season (major shoulder overhaul this summer), I'm not sure if I can still do the sweep to snag my reg. Might have to play with it a bit.

My signature line is cooler than your signature line.

Homeport: Northwest Go to Top of Page

lobsta1

RO# 1808

Posted - Dec 14 2010 :  20:37:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mike,
After smashing up my left shoulder twice while skiing & tearing the rotator cuff in my right shoulder compensating for the last left smashup, there is hope for you. I have 100% range in the right & about 95% in the left. Besides all the PT, what really helped a lot was cutting splitting & stacking MANY cords of wood.
Al
P.S. The last operation was right after I turned 55.


1978 Bertram 33

Homeport: Beverly,Ma Go to Top of Page

spj

RO# 31662

Posted - Dec 15 2010 :  06:15:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mike,

Another approach, would be a harness for your Reg. Cave divers use them alot, you can buy one, or make one out of surgical tubing. It is basically a loop arounf your neck, with a very tight loop in the front for the reg. If the reg falls out of your moouth, it is right there in front of you.




Homeport: nj Go to Top of Page

November Charlie

RO# 824

Posted - Dec 15 2010 :  11:35:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spj

Mike,

Another approach, would be a harness for your Reg. Cave divers use them alot, you can buy one, or make one out of surgical tubing. It is basically a loop arounf your neck, with a very tight loop in the front for the reg. If the reg falls out of your moouth, it is right there in front of you.





That's how I have the secondary on my 'serious' rig. I figure if I'm diving with one of those 'buddies' that are hard to shake and they decide to go OOG or have technical difficulties, they will likely go for the reg in my mouth. More importantly, if I need that secondary, it's always exactly where I want it. I'm not generally a fan of having someone stuck to my side underwater. Kinda ruins it for me. The biggest allure in diving for me is being completely alone and isolated from 'the world'.

My messing about in and around the harbor and jetties or under boats is usually just a plastic backplate holding a steel 100 with an old Cyklon and SPG, no secondary, over a neoprene Poseidon drysuit.


My signature line is cooler than your signature line.

Homeport: Northwest Go to Top of Page

Chevy427z

RO# 11911

Posted - Feb 21 2011 :  10:10:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey all.

Once again it's been a while since visiting. Been very busy. I now have certifications from all three agencies :-) As has been mentioned, so much of good training comes down to the instructor. I've had both good and bad (in diving and flying). Most recently got certified in dry suits and full face mask. (Required by, and paid for, by the rescue squad). Some of the guys from the squad gave me a quick over view of the dry suit/full face mask in a pool as an introduction to the formal class by NAUI. The class ran from Fri eve (classroom) through Sat (pool) to Sunday (in a lake at 40 degrees). Incredible instructor. I've been in 50 deg water with a wet suit and that's where I drew the line. Never saw the need for a dry suit, but glad I have that experience now.

The stress and rescue class got put off as nasty weather set in. We are scheduled to resume shortly with a refresher in the pool and finishing off in the earlier mentioned quarry. We did CPR/First Aid/ and AED last month. (SSI) I am certified Advancded Open Water (SSI) now and looking at Master Diver with the completion of stress and rescue.

Hope everyone is surviving winter ok! Weather gets better and better daily!

Mark


1989 23' Arrowglass Merc 350/260 Alpha 1 I/O "Valkyrie"
"Don't try to outweird me, three eyes. I get stranger things than you in my breakfast cereal."

Homeport: Oak Island, NC Go to Top of Page
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