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sabrejocky
RO# 12195
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Posted - Feb 21 2012 : 18:52:33
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I have been helping with the make over of boat that has 454's.
The engines ran fine 3 weeks ago but today the starboard engine had an intermittent "clacking" sound but was running just fine, shut it down as soon is I heard the clacking. Tried it one more time about 10 minutes later but it was still there.
My thinking is that it has a valve sticking somewhat. The engine is a 1993 with 420 hours on it.
I know that we can always pull the heads and have them reworked but was wondering if there are any tricks of the trade out there that might work without going all the way,
Before you guys ask, the manifolds and risers are lest that a year old.
Cor
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"Pretty Penny"
1990 50' High Tech Euro
Wellington, Florida
You ain't much if you ain't Dutch |
Edited by - sabrejocky on Apr 26 2012 09:22:14
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Homeport: Miami, Florida
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pocket change
RO# 31212
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 Posted - Feb 21 2012 : 19:38:59
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Sounds like a sticking hydralic lifter, not a valve. I have fixed them by changing the oil and putting in an additive to free sticky lifters. I would try that first.
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Homeport: stony point bay marina ny
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zane
RO# 19940
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Posted - Feb 21 2012 : 19:42:04
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there really is no such thing as a tuneup in a can....but i would go the additive route first too. Either seafoam or marvels .
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Homeport: long island, n.y.
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Sandy
RO# 1159
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Posted - Feb 21 2012 : 20:33:42
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You might care to feel around for any loose plug cable , blown plug or use a length of hose with one end at your ear to listen or again, feel with your hand , for a leaky exhaust manifold gasket to rule out those semi-remote possibilities 1st. Then, if they are not ECM- controlled ignitions maybe remove and ground out sequential sp. plug cables to see if the noise changes at one particular cylinder before pulling the valve covers. If they are ECM /injected engines you may be able to perform a Power Balance individual spark or injector shutdown test to isolate the affected cylinder.
If you do pull the valve covers , if the problem is not immediately visually evident , you can likely feel any abnormalities with your fingers on the moving rocker arms ...but it could be a little messy on a v- engine.
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| Sandy |
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Homeport: The Vineyard
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jtybt15
RO# 3300
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Posted - Feb 21 2012 : 20:50:42
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Yup, I'd go for bad lifter, too. I'd also do as sandy said, especially feeling (and ID'ing) the lifter by putting your finger on the rockers.
Lifters are $3-$6 ea. and can be changed by removing the intake.
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Charlie
There is much to be said, in a world like ours, for taking the world as you find it and fishing with a worm.-Bliss Perry, 1904
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Homeport: Ca
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sabrejocky
RO# 12195
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Posted - Feb 24 2012 : 09:21:17
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Thank you guys for the replies. It seams everyone is thinking it is a lifter.
Just to go over this some more, the engine runs just fine no couching or sneezing, or miss firing, all sound right and normal except for the "clack". The "clacking" sound is not continues or rhythmic, it is a single "clack" at irregular interfals. I have not started it back up, in fear of damaging it, when we did run it it was very short and no faster than 1200rpm, this right after start up to warm it up till I heard the "clacking".
Like to see if we all still think it is a lifter before I try to run it again or otherwise I need to think of a different approach.
Cor
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"Pretty Penny"
1990 50' High Tech Euro
Wellington, Florida
You ain't much if you ain't Dutch |
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Homeport: Miami, Florida
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JimPend
RO# 5022
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Posted - Feb 24 2012 : 09:27:41
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I'd drain a quart of oil and replace it with transmission fluid first.
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| Jim P. |
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Homeport: Port Clinton, OH
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troublemaker
RO# 32512
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Posted - Feb 24 2012 : 09:44:10
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I would pull the valve cover and do a visual inspection it could be a couple of other things, if all looks good put it back together fire it up and if and when it starts rattling pull the plug wire on that set of valves to see if it stops clattering if it does then it is a lifter, now you can do this with no harm to the engine at idle. I would then drain a quart of oil from the pan and add a quart of transmission fluid run the motor for 15 min drain oil and replace oil filter add fresh oil and see if that solves the problem sometimes it works and sometimes it does not worth a try though.
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| TM |
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Homeport: British Columbia
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Riverratt
RO# 12842
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Posted - Feb 24 2012 : 10:01:02
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I would try to adjust the lifter 1st (with the engine running of course). You could also spray some carb cleaner down the push rod. I'll 2nd the transmission fluid suggestion.
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Homeport: St Charles, Missouri
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jmas
RO# 4313
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Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 21:57:10
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Cor
Had same problem as you describe few years ago. 1 pint of Marvel Mystery Oil added to oil stopped the clacking imediatly. Noise never came back
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Joe M.
Luhrs 340 Express Fish
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Homeport: Pompano Fla.
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pdecat
RO# 842
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Posted - Feb 28 2012 : 06:52:31
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Use a piece of garden or similar hose as a stethoscope to narrow down the location of the noise. Check the front of the engine too especially at the front of the crank if the valve covers are inconclusive.
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Bruce
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Homeport: Gulf Coast FL
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sabrejocky
RO# 12195
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Posted - Feb 28 2012 : 08:00:02
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Thanks guys, have not had a chance to try any of your suggestions but hope to do so this week.
Cor
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"Pretty Penny"
1990 50' High Tech Euro
Wellington, Florida
You ain't much if you ain't Dutch |
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Homeport: Miami, Florida
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mdoherty
RO# 12220
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Posted - Feb 28 2012 : 17:50:07
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OK I'll be the dissenting vote, a single intermittent clack doesn't sound like a lifter to me. Lifter problems are more persistent, at least five or 10 seconds before they go away. I also don't understand the comment about removing a plug wire to diagnose a lifter. The valve travel is the same spark or no spark.
How loud is the clack? Could it be ocassional breakdown of a plug wire and you are hearing the arc?
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| Mike |
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Homeport: Edgewater, MD
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sabrejocky
RO# 12195
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Posted - Feb 29 2012 : 08:20:07
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mike, I too am not so sure it is a lifter. The HT wires are all less than a year old and should be fine.
The other engine was replaced when a boatyard managed to destroy a piston due to an intake valve sticking after water got in the fuel. The last think we want to do is blow an other piston and end up having to replace this engine too.
To me it sounds like contact between the piston and a valve but the engine runs and sounds fine otherwise, (only run at low rpm for a couple of minutes)
The clack was loud enough to hear it on the flybridge. I do not think arcing would be that load and wouldn't the engine be mis firing?
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"Pretty Penny"
1990 50' High Tech Euro
Wellington, Florida
You ain't much if you ain't Dutch |
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Homeport: Miami, Florida
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pdecat
RO# 842
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Posted - Feb 29 2012 : 08:28:41
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sound it out.everything else is speculation.
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Bruce
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Homeport: Gulf Coast FL
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chriscraft67
RO# 12563
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Posted - Feb 29 2012 : 08:37:26
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OK, I'll try: A small exhaust leak at one of the manifolds. Can sound just like a collapsed lifter but an exhaust leak won't degrade performance.
Bill
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Homeport: Norwich, CT
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mdoherty
RO# 12220
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Posted - Feb 29 2012 : 17:25:37
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If its that loud I agree not a plug wire. Exhaust leak is a possible. Don't think you could hear a valve tap on the flybridge either. I'd be looking outside the engine at this point checking accessories etc.
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Homeport: Edgewater, MD
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OLD HOUSEBOATER
RO# 9099
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Posted - Mar 02 2012 : 21:11:50
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Do NOT add transmission fluid to quiet a lifter. Instead use a can of RISLONE. You do not have to change oil after the treatment. You leave it in until the next oil change. I have done this many times over the last 50 years and it worked every time.
All that being said, I haven't seen a stuck lifter for at least 10 years. Modern oils took care of that problem years ago.
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OLD HOUSEBOATER
The French fries are cold so we gave you extra. |
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Homeport: GULF SHORES AL.
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sabrejocky
RO# 12195
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Posted - Mar 03 2012 : 08:21:17
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Still have not been able to get in to this any deeper, been sick all week.
I do not think this is an exhaust leak, leaks like that are continues and sound more like "thich" this is definitely a "clack" with a metallic sound to it.
It is intermittent and none rhythmic.
Cor
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"Pretty Penny"
1990 50' High Tech Euro
Wellington, Florida
You ain't much if you ain't Dutch |
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Homeport: Miami, Florida
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pdecat
RO# 842
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Posted - Mar 03 2012 : 10:01:05
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sounding more like the dampener especially if it stops with increased rpm, sound it out
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Bruce
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Homeport: Gulf Coast FL
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sabrejocky
RO# 12195
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Posted - Mar 03 2012 : 11:28:37
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Dampener?????
You mean the front pully?
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"Pretty Penny"
1990 50' High Tech Euro
Wellington, Florida
You ain't much if you ain't Dutch |
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Homeport: Miami, Florida
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pdecat
RO# 842
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Posted - Mar 03 2012 : 11:47:59
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yes
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Bruce
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Homeport: Gulf Coast FL
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sabrejocky
RO# 12195
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Posted - Mar 03 2012 : 12:49:27
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Thanks Bruce
I will be checking that. Sure would be much less of an issue than sticking valves!
Cor
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"Pretty Penny"
1990 50' High Tech Euro
Wellington, Florida
You ain't much if you ain't Dutch |
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Homeport: Miami, Florida
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pdecat
RO# 842
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Posted - Mar 03 2012 : 12:51:04
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use the hose as i said
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Bruce
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Homeport: Gulf Coast FL
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sabrejocky
RO# 12195
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Posted - Mar 08 2012 : 20:44:33
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Update:
Finally had a chance to mess with this engine today and am just as stomped as I was before. I was armed with some hose, Marvels Oil, a stethoscope and tools. Checked the outside of the engine all over and found not a thing, added some MM oil to the sump and started her up. I tried running some MM oil down the carb but the "clack" was still there, I listened with both the hose and stethoscope but could not detect the "clack" anywhere. Then I noticed that everytime with the sound the linkage on the end of the secondary butterfly would jolt. Now I was able to hear to "clack" with the stethoscope in the carb but not anywhere else on the intake manufolt.
Twice the engine was running for a couple of minutes without any clacking but it kept coming back, so I am not so use I have any valve problems.
But what is going?
The "clack" was only on the secondary side of the carb not on the mains, why? Do I have a carb problem? a fuel problem?
It runs on proper gas not the blended stuff. The tanks where pumped out and cleaned just over a year ago because of water in the tanks and the carbs where rebuild by a boatyard. The fuel level in the tank is low and what is left in there is from October of last year.
The source of the water was bad deckfills and we have since replaced them.
Cor
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"Pretty Penny"
1990 50' High Tech Euro
Wellington, Florida
You ain't much if you ain't Dutch |
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Homeport: Miami, Florida
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BornToBoat
RO# 17774
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Posted - Mar 16 2012 : 10:10:19
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I'm not a carb guy, but I wonder if it could be a vacuum hose issue???
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Rob
"Rola Roma"
1997 Sundancer 330, 7.4 IB
Anchorage Yacht Club
Lindenhurst, NY
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Homeport: New York
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imspacemancraig
RO# 31301
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Posted - Mar 16 2012 : 10:52:04
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Could it be with your distributor? I quickly sifted through this post and didn't see mention of this (although I could have missed it). It says at the top this is a 1993, so not sure if you have points or electronic ignition. Could the timing be off? Mine would do this even when I updated and put an electronic ignition kits on it until the timing was set exactly right. Mine sounded like a crack/smack sound. Ended up having to replace the whole distributor last fall once we figured out that the insides were rusted and the advance weights and springs were crumbling.
Once we replaced all the parts, we had to set the timing, but during that process, there were some clack, smack, crack like sounds.
Just a thought...
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Homeport: Winneconne, WI
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Riverratt
RO# 12842
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Posted - Mar 16 2012 : 13:04:42
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Could it be exhaust shutters?
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Homeport: St Charles, Missouri
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mdoherty
RO# 12220
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Posted - Mar 16 2012 : 18:31:53
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Sounds like you have an intermittent backfire. The mains don't move since they are connected by hard linkage that controlls movement in both directions. The linkage for the secondaries is not fixed and they are held closed by a spring. When it bacfires the pressure opens the secondaries. Could be carbon traking in the distributor cap that allows a plug to fire when the intake is open, could also be jumping between wires or unlikely but possibly a carbon hotspot in the chamber that ignites the charge as it enters the combustion chamber.
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| Mike |
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Homeport: Edgewater, MD
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sabrejocky
RO# 12195
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Posted - Apr 03 2012 : 08:08:00
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Well MM oil was not going to do it. So far after removing the heads we found that #4 exhaust valve was stuck and the pushrod bend. The heads are at the machine shop and they will be checking for leaking valve guides as these are watercooled.
We should know more in a couple of days, keep you informed on the results.
Cor
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"Pretty Penny"
1990 50' High Tech Euro
Wellington, Florida
You ain't much if you ain't Dutch |
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Homeport: Miami, Florida
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dominic
RO# 2355
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Posted - Apr 03 2012 : 08:33:05
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I'm surprised you couldn't pinpoint that sound with the stethoscope.
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later,
dominic
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Homeport: Jersey Shore, NJ
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jtybt15
RO# 3300
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Posted - Apr 03 2012 : 15:27:11
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...and what was their reason to pull the head?????
Doing as Sandy said, pulling the valve cover and checking each valve would have ID'd the problem. And,the push rod could have been replaced right there.
You wanna listen to us or to someone trying to make money off you.
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Charlie
There is much to be said, in a world like ours, for taking the world as you find it and fishing with a worm.-Bliss Perry, 1904
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Homeport: Ca
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sabrejocky
RO# 12195
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Posted - Apr 03 2012 : 16:14:57
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We did remove the covers and found the bend rod and stuck valve. We could not get the valve to start working right, bend 2 more rods, so of came the heads. It very much looks like a leaking valve guide and no MM oil in the world is going to fix that!
The heads are at the machine shop where they will do a full inspection and test and than we will do what ever needs to be done to them. If there was a way of fixing the problem without removing the heads I would have done so, and once you remove 1 head it makes sense to take the other one of too and check it. I would hate to spend all that time and money to only have the other head give problems after it is all back together.
It was never about listing to someone trying to make money of us, we checked everything step by step. When we found the stuck valve we worked on it for over half a day but in the end it was not going to work and if it turns out to be a leaking guide it is best that it gets fixed right. I have no need to gamble an engine over a guide, any water will destroy engine!
Cor
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"Pretty Penny"
1990 50' High Tech Euro
Wellington, Florida
You ain't much if you ain't Dutch |
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Homeport: Miami, Florida
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sabrejocky
RO# 12195
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Posted - Apr 03 2012 : 16:22:58
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Dominic the pushrod was not just a little bend, it looked like zoro's signature!
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"Pretty Penny"
1990 50' High Tech Euro
Wellington, Florida
You ain't much if you ain't Dutch |
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Homeport: Miami, Florida
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happyhour
RO# 4143
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Posted - Apr 03 2012 : 16:53:33
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A stuck #4 exhaust valve is almost without fail a water problem. I would be surprised if it is the head leaking around the guide. It is more than likely water reversion or inversion from the exhaust cooling system. ie:
Layout of exhaust system
leaking riser or elbow
leaking gaskets at elbow riser
rusted out elbow, manifold or riser
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Homeport: Newport Beach, Ca
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sabrejocky
RO# 12195
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Posted - Apr 26 2012 : 09:40:48
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Well an update on this topic.
The engine is back together and running fine so far.
It had a stuck exhaust valve and bend pushrod. Both heads where redone and tested by a machine shop. The exhaust manifolds and risers where less than 1 year old but I did a pressure test on them anyway and they where good. The machine shop had checked the intake manifold and it was good too.
I double checked the riser hight and also pulled the risers on the port engine which showed no evidence of water.
So the only explanation for the water/rust found on the valve would be a failed intake gasket allowing water to seep into the #4 cylinder. I did find some evidence of past corrosion on the seating surfaces.
I have to say for all the heavy metal on these engines I wonder why the seating area around the water passages between the heads and the intake manifold are so minimal, looks like a plan for trouble to me.
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"Pretty Penny"
1990 50' High Tech Euro
Wellington, Florida
You ain't much if you ain't Dutch |
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Homeport: Miami, Florida
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jtybt15
RO# 3300
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Posted - Apr 26 2012 : 13:52:55
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The riser height is only a partial fix as the real problem is the height of the point that the water mixes with the exhaust. At low engines speeds (idle speeds), the valve overlap between the closing of the exhaust valve and the opening of the intake valve is sucking exhaust gases back into the combustion chamber. That raw water exiting the riser is more easily sucked back into the exhaust passage.
Your concern about the thin walls of the exhaust manifolds and risers was also mine. Finally about 6 years ago we started experimenting with welding up the entire water connection on both the manifold and riser.
Worked out pretty good 'cept for my inexperience welding cast iron. It has a tendency to crack between the bead and cast iron. Finally got it right and continued experimenting with the exhaust system. I now have aluminum manifolds because of the lower weight and it's much easier to weld.
The other half of the problem being the riser, I started making a SS exhaust system with a solid 1/2" thick SS base. The next part was eliminating the point of water/exhaust mixing. I finally got a full water jacketed SS exhaust riser and exhaust 'pipe' that doesn't mix the exiting water with the exhaust gases until just before it goes out the transom.
I've showed the pix a half dozen times before...but here it is again.
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Charlie
There is much to be said, in a world like ours, for taking the world as you find it and fishing with a worm.-Bliss Perry, 1904
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Homeport: Ca
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sticking valve, intermittent, UPDATE 4-26-2012
