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Andy65
RO# 25185
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Posted - Mar 18 2012 : 20:31:00
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89 300 Sundancer on land. I connect shore power, flip master breaker on, good. Flip outlets breaker-still good; flip stove/microwave breaker and master trips. Flip hotwater and master trips. Odd that outlets breaker being on is ok but not stove/microwave or hotwater. This boat has the central vacuum. Stove/microwave must be on to run central vac. Could batteries being out of the boat somehow be affecting AC? DC converter/charger breaker is off and battery switches are off. I tried plugging into another outlet on the power pedestal. Ideas? How do I debug this?
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Edited by - Andy65 on Mar 24 2012 21:45:16
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pdecat
RO# 842
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Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 06:25:58
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first check the voltage.
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Bruce
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Homeport: Gulf Coast FL
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bobalong
RO# 19429
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 Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 09:58:22
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Check voltage as was stated. . .110-120 Volts. As with problems like these it becomes a process of elimination. Batteries not being installed should not affect your house 110 v system.
I think you are correct when you say it is odd that the main is tripping rather than the individual breakers. Leads me to believe that there is either an issue with the power as it enters the shore power plug, or the main breaker has gotten tired and needs replaced.
Is this a single 30 A power or more complicated 50 A plug or ???
My guess is that your breaker "box" would be the easiest place to disconnect each affected item, i.e. the stove , water heater etc if those becomes necessary for testing.
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Homeport: Sutherrrn Indianannna
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rnbenton
RO# 31163
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Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 10:10:30
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Personally, if it were me, I'd call a certified marine electrician rather than guess at it. I know just enough about electricity to get myself fried. Plus, I never mess with anything I can't see.
Don't guess at it, get a pro thet KNOWS what he is doing. JMHO.
Bob
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Captain, Sea Tow Central Florida, St. Johns River
Key West 196 Bay Reef, 150 Yamaha
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Homeport: Palm Coast, FL
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pdecat
RO# 842
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Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 14:10:40
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Low voltage is not unusual in a yard and will cause excessive current.
Bob:quote:
I never mess with anything I can't see
except for propane????????
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Bruce
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Homeport: Gulf Coast FL
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rnbenton
RO# 31163
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Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 14:18:08
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quote:
Originally posted by pdecat
Low voltage is not unusual in a yard and will cause excessive current.
Bob:quote:
I never mess with anything I can't see
except for propane????????
......... or smell. 
Bob
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Captain, Sea Tow Central Florida, St. Johns River
Key West 196 Bay Reef, 150 Yamaha
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Homeport: Palm Coast, FL
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D. Andrews
RO# 20354
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Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 18:28:59
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Above advise is good, test voltage at shore power plug, post the result. Then if I read correctly, turn everything off in the panel, turn main on, then turn stove on, does it trip the main? Turn stove off, turn water heater on, does it trip the main? Start with water heater as it is easist. Turn everything off again, go to waterheater and turn the temp to lowest possible setting, then turn breaker back on, does the main trip? Then I have to ask, is the water heater and or stove 110 or 220? Do you have some type converter on you shore power cord? The main tripping is what worries me. I will wait for your responses to these questions before prodeding further..........D..........
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"Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
Doing what is right is not always easy and doing what is easy is not always right.
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. |
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Homeport: Mississippi
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lobsta1
RO# 1808
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Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 19:04:56
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Before you flip the water heater breaker on, I hope the heater tank is full. Otherwise you will burn out the element.
Al
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Homeport: Beverly,Ma
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rawidman
RO# 25110
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Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 19:15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy65
89 300 Sundancer on land. I connect shore power, flip master breaker on, good. Flip outlets breaker-still good; flip stove/microwave breaker and master trips. Flip hotwater and master trips. Odd that outlets breaker being on is ok but not stove/microwave or hotwater. This boat has the central vacuum. Stove/microwave must be on to run central vac.
First, you haven't said if the stove or central vac are turned on and drawing power once the breakers are on. Or if there is a load on the other circuits. This is important. We can assume the water heater is calling for heat if the power has been off for a while and the boat hasn't been run in the last hour or two.
If there is a load on the stove/microwave breaker (or a short circuit), it's possible that the main breaker is weak and tripping at a lower current than it's rated for.
The suggestion to call in an electrician is a good one. I'm going to assume that if you were familiar with electricity and electrical troubleshooting, you would have found the problem without posting.
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Ron
2000 Camano Troll |
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Homeport: Charleston, SC
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Andy65
RO# 25185
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Posted - Mar 19 2012 : 20:59:18
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Built in meter on panel indicates voltage is good. 30 amp pedestal into 30 amp socket on boat. No 50a anywhere. Everything is off. Switches on stove, vac, microwave all off. Breakers trip with everything in off position. The stove breaker/micro/vac breaker trips with no load The hotwater trips in a millisecond before it could get heat to the element. The main trips off and the stove or hotwater trip off instantly. But outlets breaker if turned on stays on. It doesn't seem like the short could be on the appliance end since two separate circuits are involved. I'm hoping someone would say, this has to be in the panel before I start pulling things apart.
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rawidman
RO# 25110
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Posted - Mar 20 2012 : 07:18:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy65
......... I'm hoping someone would say, this has to be in the panel before I start pulling things apart.
Nobody can tell you exactly what the problem is (although some will try) without being there and testing things with a meter.
You haven't said if everything used to work OK and suddenly this problem started, you bought the boat used and it's been like this since you bought it, or the problem started after some other work was done to the boat.
Unless you want to replace all the breakers to see if it's a breaker problem (and it might be a wiring problem), your best bet is to get someone who knows how to troubleshoot and repair boat electrical systems.
BTW: Low voltage doesn't cause increased current (except in some types of motors). If it did, the current would increase to infinite when the voltage dropped to zero.
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Ron
2000 Camano Troll |
Edited by - rawidman on Mar 20 2012 07:20:36 |
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Homeport: Charleston, SC
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pdecat
RO# 842
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Posted - Mar 20 2012 : 07:32:33
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true only rotating loads will draw more current.
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Bruce
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Homeport: Gulf Coast FL
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bobalong
RO# 19429
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Posted - Mar 20 2012 : 15:08:30
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Pull the shore power plug. Any inverters disabled (disconnect 12 V to it) Open up the breaker box and just snoop around. I bet something has come loose, something is causing a short. Find where the main Buss is and follow it. Can't hurt to look for something obvious with all power disconnected.
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Homeport: Sutherrrn Indianannna
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Andy65
RO# 25185
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Posted - Mar 20 2012 : 17:56:39
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Have had the boat for years. Never a problem with A/C power. I'll start with the panel with power disconnected. It is the only place I can think where a short can affect two circuits simultaneously.
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D. Andrews
RO# 20354
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Posted - Mar 20 2012 : 18:29:06
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BTW: Low voltage doesn't cause increased current (except in some types of motors).
Did I read that statement right? Are you "suggesting" that the last what 100 years or so are wrong, or that ohms law is wrong? This is a simple calculation:
I = W / V
Or in english, amps equal watts divided by volts, a 50w bulb at 12vac equals 4.17a the same 50w bulb, at 120vac eguals .417a, we are not talking some sort of magic motor, we are talking a simple resistive load.
If it did, the current would increase to infinite when the voltage dropped to zero.
I "think" this is what a breaker is for, could be wrong, but I think that is the device that protects the wire to limit the current to only what the wire is rated for.
Andy65, if I understand you, both the main and the device breakers trip, with in milliseconds of turning them on, you have a dead short, somewhere, or something is wired way wrong. At this point, if your not experienced with electrical troubleshooting I have to advise you to not turn those on, and seek the assistance of a pro. You are running the risk of a fire or serious damage to your boat. Strange things happen over the winter, mice and rodents love to chew on wires is a real possibility. A dead short is the only thing I know of that would cause that to happen the way it is happening. If you have some experience, and are not afraid to try, I can walk you through some of it. You will need a DVOM ( digital volt ohm meter ) for me to help you. It needs to be a decent one, not one of the 9.99 ones you find in the auto stores. Plus you need at least the basic knowledge of electrical systems, what wire colors mean, and the basic safety rules such as never working in a hot panel or on a live circut, especially one feed from different sources. Let me know......D..........
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"Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
Doing what is right is not always easy and doing what is easy is not always right.
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. |
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Homeport: Mississippi
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rawidman
RO# 25110
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Posted - Mar 20 2012 : 18:51:50
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quote:
Originally posted by D. Andrews
BTW: Low voltage doesn't cause increased current (except in some types of motors).
Did I read that statement right? Are you "suggesting" that the last what 100 years or so are wrong, or that ohms law is wrong? This is a simple calculation:
I = W / V
Or in english, amps equal watts divided by volts, a 50w bulb at 12vac equals 4.17a the same 50w bulb, at 120vac eguals .417a, we are not talking some sort of magic motor, we are talking a simple resistive load.
If it did, the current would increase to infinite when the voltage dropped to zero.
I "think" this is what a breaker is for, could be wrong, but I think that is the device that protects the wire to limit the current to only what the wire is rated for.
You are using ohms law incorrectly. The wattage (power) is not constant as the voltage drops.
Think about this: With a flashlight, as the batteries grow weak, does the light get dimmer or brighter?
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I= V/R
12 (volts) divided by 10 ohms (the load) = 1.2 amps
10 (volts) divided by 10 ohms (the load) = 1 amp
8 (volts) divided by 10 ohms (the load) = .8 amp
You are correct in what a circuit breaker is for but it has no place in this discussion.
Motors aren't "magic" but as a motor rotates under power, it also acts as a generator, generating a voltage is the opposite of the applied voltage. This is called "counter EMF" and causes the motor to draw less current than when it is slowed or stopped. The "locked rotor" current drawn by a motor is more than when the motor is running at its designed speed.
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Ron
2000 Camano Troll |
Edited by - rawidman on Mar 20 2012 18:57:30 |
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Homeport: Charleston, SC
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bobalong
RO# 19429
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Posted - Mar 21 2012 : 10:15:27
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Andy
Keep us posted on what you find out.
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Homeport: Sutherrrn Indianannna
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D. Andrews
RO# 20354
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Posted - Mar 21 2012 : 19:27:26
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Not going to do the debate here, all I am going to say is if you were right, we would all have 12vac central ac units, we dont, we have 220-240, why because it is less amps than 110, and a lot less than 12.
Andy, I/we await you decision on how to move forward...........D.........
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"Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
Doing what is right is not always easy and doing what is easy is not always right.
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. |
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Homeport: Mississippi
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Andy65
RO# 25185
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Posted - Mar 22 2012 : 22:14:21
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Update: Here is the procedure for the next person. Connected batteries- still trips. Disconnected shore power (don't just flip pedestal switch as you may flip wrong one; disconnect to be safe) and removed panel. No lose screws. No burned wires. Checked individual breakers the safe way as follows: Shore power disconnected, master off. Resistance across breaker should be infinite (1 on the meter) with breaker off and a few ohms with breaker on and appliances off depending on appliance. If there is a short I would expect zero ohms. All appliance breakers test good. Note: Outlets are an open circuit if nothing is plugged into any one of them. I thought the a/c charger circuit breaker resistance looked a little odd. Disconnected black from charger breaker to take it out of the circuit. Tape wires over so they can't touch. Plug shore power in, master on, turn an appliance breaker on, master trips instantly. This means charger breaker is not the problem. This test can be done for each breaker to isolate problem. Next, shore power disconnected, check master breaker. The master breaker appears to be a single pole triple throw. It is like three breakers attached together. *** The top pole shows 1200 ohms resistance in the on position! That doesn't seem right. Other poles show near zero in the on position. All show infinite in off position. The reason why the breaker doesn't trip on outlets may be because there is no return path with nothing plugged into an outlet. Everything else has a return even if turned off. The master breaker trips if there is any voltage at all. I don't know if the master breaker is the problem as a triple pole breaker is unusual. Should the top pole have resistance in the on position? Stay tuned.
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rawidman
RO# 25110
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Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 07:01:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy65
.......... Next, shore power disconnected, check master breaker. The master breaker appears to be a single pole triple throw. It is like three breakers attached together. *** The top pole shows 1200 ohms resistance in the on position! That doesn't seem right. Other poles show near zero in the on position. All show infinite in off position. The reason why the breaker doesn't trip on outlets may be because there is no return path with nothing plugged into an outlet. Everything else has a return even if turned off. The master breaker trips if there is any voltage at all. I don't know if the master breaker is the problem as a triple pole breaker is unusual. Should the top pole have resistance in the on position? Stay tuned.
The master breaker is not a single pole triple throw, it's a triple pole, single throw. Looks like three breakers tied together with one handle or connections between seperate handles, right?
This type of breaker came up in another discussion, possibly on another forum. It turned out that this master breaker was designed to trip if the polarity to the boat was reversed (that's what the third pole is for, the other two break the hot and neutral conductors).
First, of course, check to see that the polarity to the boat is not reversed.
Second (and I hesitate to suggest this without actually seeing the boat and to someone without a lot of electrical experience), disconnect the wire from the third pole (the one with the high resistance), insulate the bare end, and then connect the power and see if everything works normally.
If it does, you have either reversed polarity to the boat or a wiring problem on the boat.
If it's not reversed polarity at the pedestal that the marina will fix, it's seriously time for a marine electrician.
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Ron
2000 Camano Troll |
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Homeport: Charleston, SC
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j-d
RO# 15782
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Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 11:04:07
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Very easy to trip main breaker. Say there are three 15A branch outlets with 12A load on each. Branches don't trip but the 30A main sees 36A and trips.
It's also possible for breakers to get "weak" or "tired" (Lord knows I did) with age, and trip way below their rating. I had to replace the 30A main in our RV because it went weak, and in the last house we were in, both we and the neighbors had to replace their 240VAC A/C breakers. Ours was tripping well below rating and theirs was conducting on only one leg of the two.
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God Bless, jd
1996 Sea Ray 215EC
Alpha One GEN II 5.7L/350CID/EFI/220HP
14-1/2*19 Stainless RWC
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Homeport: Sunny Florida
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mdoherty
RO# 12220
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Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 14:07:57
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quote:
Originally posted by D. Andrews
Or in english, amps equal watts divided by volts, a 50w bulb at 12vac equals 4.17a the same 50w bulb, at 120vac eguals .417a, we are not talking some sort of magic motor, we are talking a simple resistive load.
If it did, the current would increase to infinite when the voltage dropped to zero.
Unless you are talking about a "magic" bulb you are wrong. The same bulb that draws .417 amps at 12 volts will draw 4.17 Amps at 120 v for a brief milisecond before it goes pop since you turned it into a 500w bulb.
The resistance is fixed so the current is the dependent variable and depends on the voltage. For fixed resistance if the voltage goes up the current goes up. If you are talking about a fixed power load (like some motors or switch mode power supplies) as the voltage goes up they increase their resistance to reduce current keep power (I x E) constant.
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Homeport: Edgewater, MD
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D. Andrews
RO# 20354
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Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 17:50:52
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Mike gets a bingo! You got it, and no, was not talking about a 12vac bulb at 120, was speaking watts, no more, no less.
John, both the main and the sub trip, not just the main, this indicates, as suggested possible reverse polarity, or as suggested, dead short on both of the circuts. I have seen that happen a lot more times than reverse polarity. Animal ( mice, rat, tree rat, racoon, etc ) sees nice dry empty boat set up for winter and moves in. Most wire insulation is made with bananna oil as one of the ingrediants, and they love the taste of it. They chew and chew untill everything is exposed and now touching. Seen this many many times. I have also seen multiple devices fail over a few months of non use too.
Now, instead of unhooking a bunch of stuff, go to the local hardware store, buy a 110 outlet tester. They are about 7 dollars, have 3 lights on top, 1 red, 2 yellow. Test your outlet on the dock first, just read the top of the tester, it will tell you what the lights mean. If that is ok, plug in boat, turn main and 1 outlet circut on, then test that. If that checks ok, then it is not reverse polarity and you can move on with some other testing. But this is an easy one, that does not require any wires to be disconected............D............
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"Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
Doing what is right is not always easy and doing what is easy is not always right.
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. |
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Homeport: Mississippi
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Andy65
RO# 25185
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Posted - Mar 24 2012 : 21:48:13
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SOLVED! I contacted Carling Switch. They are quite familiar with this breaker. It is supposed to have 1200 ohms resistance across terminal 3 (the top one) as mine does. The breaker consists of 2 30A circuit breakers and a third component that looks like a circuit breaker but is actually a coil. The coil monitors the balance of voltage on the circuit (I think across neutral white verses ground green). If there is an imbalance, it trips. Had the boat next to me plug into the same dock box. No problem for him. I tried tried a non pedestal outlet. Still trips. I'm using a construction extension cord plugged into a pigtail plugged into the boat's shore power receptacle. Problem was the ground prong wasn't making a good connection which caused the coil breaker to trip! The panel meter showed 130v so I was fooled into the connection was good. This pigtail does not have a locking ring so it can go on less than perfectly straight. Removed, reinserted twisted tight - problem solved. My next step would have been to remove the green wire on the right side of top of main triple throw P3.
Other info: The Sea Ray manual says low voltage or high voltage will trip the breaker as well as high current. The Carling tech says neither high nor low voltage will make it trip. The breaker is marked 60v trip. I don't know who is right. These breakers are no longer in production but they are available.
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rawidman
RO# 25110
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Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 07:31:26
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quote:
Originally posted by D. Andrews
Mike gets a bingo! You got it, and no, was not talking about a 12vac bulb at 120, was speaking watts, no more, no less.
So when I say it, I'm wrong, but Mike says it and he's right?
At least now, you understand.
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Ron
2000 Camano Troll |
Edited by - rawidman on Mar 25 2012 07:32:01 |
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Homeport: Charleston, SC
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D. Andrews
RO# 20354
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Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 09:44:24
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Andy, great, glad you found it and it was a simple fix. The missing piece was this is apperently, in its simple form, a gfci breaker.
And since some want to continue the argument, here is something very simple. Perform this simple calculation, the example being a 5hp, 100% efficiency (just makes the math easy, there is no such motor) electric motor at the following voltages: 12vac, 120vac, 240vac, 480vac. 1hp equaling 746watts or 1watt equaling 1/746 of a hp. What you will find is that the higher the voltage, the lower the amperage, the lower the voltage the higher the amperage for equall work........D...........
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"Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
Doing what is right is not always easy and doing what is easy is not always right.
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. |
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Homeport: Mississippi
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Pa Mikee
RO# 32785
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Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 12:13:23
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Considering how basic ohm's law is, I amazed how some do not understand it and how it applies to resistive circuits. When a manufacture of a light bulb states it's 60 watts; that wattage is specified at a certain voltage. In order to use ohms law properly, the resistance/load needs to be calculated R=E^2/I. A bulb the manufacture rated a 60 watts at 120 volts will have a resistance of 240 ohms. The load of 240 ohms is constant and now it can be plugged into I=E/R. This is where you can now use ohm's law and vary the voltage to calculate the current. Once you know what the current is at certain voltage, then it's possible to calculate the power/wattage at that voltage.
I just looked at 4 different incadesent light bulb and both wattage and voltage were clearly marked on them. The manufactures know that the wattage of the bulbs will depend on the voltage applied to them.
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D. Andrews
RO# 20354
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Posted - Mar 25 2012 : 13:05:02
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And your exactly right, thus the reason a 50w bulb at 12vac will have a load of 2.4a and a 50w bulb at 120v will have a load of .417a..........D.........
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"Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
Doing what is right is not always easy and doing what is easy is not always right.
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. |
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Homeport: Mississippi
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rawidman
RO# 25110
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Posted - Mar 26 2012 : 06:46:31
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quote:
Originally posted by D. Andrews
And your exactly right, thus the reason a 50w bulb at 12vac will have a load of 2.4a and a 50w bulb at 120v will have a load of .417a..........D.........
You guys have a great time here. 
Just so you understand that when the voltage from a battery or shore power connection drops, the current DOES NOT increase.
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Ron
2000 Camano Troll |
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Homeport: Charleston, SC
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AC Breakers tripping - Solved
