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HaveADay
RO# 30763
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Radioactive
RO# 3238
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Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 21:23:08
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From article: "... can't teach an old dog new tricks".
Well, either the old dog learns, or he will keep doing this till "he gets it right" and is no longer a problem...
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Bill
"No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Bonzai
"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." - Kenneth Grahame |
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Homeport: MS Gulf Coast
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Golfman25
RO# 1239
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Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 21:30:50
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What a f'ing idiot. First, that boat is too small for Lake Michigan. Second, going out when the water is 40 something degrees. Third, going without life jackets on. Next time -- good ridence.
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Homeport: Algonquin
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saltysam
RO# 26
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Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 21:42:39
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Such stupity and the potential to endanger others who might be called upon to help in a resue should be rewarded by some suitable action.
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Cheers!
Bill |
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Homeport: New River, Ft Lauderdale
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HaveADay
RO# 30763
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Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 21:42:51
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Sure seems like at very least the city should bill them for every piece of the rescue. And extra for being complete f'in morons.
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Have A Day - 2001 Cruisers 4450 |
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Homeport: Chicago, IL
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November Charlie
RO# 824
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 Posted - Apr 18 2012 : 23:11:22
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quote:
Originally posted by HaveADay
Sure seems like at very least the city should bill them for every piece of the rescue. And extra for being complete f'in morons.
I strongly disagree with billing victims of SAR cases. Money is a powerful motivator - people will do, and fail to do, some wild things for money. When someone is weighing the potential cost of rescue efforts, especially in this economy, when they're trying to decide whether they should listen to their wife and call for help, they are going to hesitate. The fear of an additional financial burden on top of their immediate troubles IS going to make them hesitate, it IS going to make them wait until the situation is unmistakably, overwhelmingly out of control.
NOW things are exponentially worse for them and for the potential rescuers. You can't make up lost time. You can turn assets around if they're no longer needed, but you can't turn back time and get them on-scene sooner if you have a foolishly delayed notification. SAR needs to be uninfluenced by any mercenary motive or concern.
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Homeport: Northeast
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Flutterby
RO# 14378
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Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 01:50:04
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Mike, you make an excellent point. Thank you.
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Homeport: California Sierras/Gold Country
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HaveADay
RO# 30763
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Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 08:32:32
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Mike,
You've plainly put a lot more time and thought into the topic than I have and make a much better argument against billing than my flippant comment for billing. Your points are spot on and I can't disagree. That said, like everything else in life the challenge comes at the fringe. Your arguments clearly point out the limitations of billing a consumer of rescue services, my thought of billing came from an individual behaving at the fringe and you point out that can have an affect on someone more in the middle of the curve. That's not an acceptable situation, however, this situation is still troubling to me. The city spent how much responding to this guy? They had three boats on scene, two helicopters and countless surface assets. A year ago when many of the same assets were utilized it was easy enough to look at the situation, wonder what he was doing out but attribute it to one questionable decision and figure he learned his lesson. A year later it seems awfully clear the only lesson he learned was that if he gets in trouble of his own creation there's an army of resources standing by to bail him out. One just searches for some consequence, some dis-incentive.
Ben
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Have A Day - 2001 Cruisers 4450 |
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Homeport: Chicago, IL
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In the know
RO# 20824
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Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 08:51:38
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quote:
Originally posted by HaveADay
Mike,
You've plainly put a lot more time and thought into the topic than I have and make a much better argument against billing than my flippant comment for billing. Your points are spot on and I can't disagree. That said, like everything else in life the challenge comes at the fringe. Your arguments clearly point out the limitations of billing a consumer of rescue services, my thought of billing came from an individual behaving at the fringe and you point out that can have an affect on someone more in the middle of the curve. That's not an acceptable situation, however, this situation is still troubling to me. The city spent how much responding to this guy? They had three boats on scene, two helicopters and countless surface assets. A year ago when many of the same assets were utilized it was easy enough to look at the situation, wonder what he was doing out but attribute it to one questionable decision and figure he learned his lesson. A year later it seems awfully clear the only lesson he learned was that if he gets in trouble of his own creation there's an army of resources standing by to bail him out. One just searches for some consequence, some dis-incentive.
Ben
So who determines where the "fringe" as you put it is?
One could argue that every SAR is a result of one's own creation.
The man, albeit uses questionable judgment, is entitled to SAR efforts as is everyone else.
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The enemy of society - the HUTAL |
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Homeport: The Ocean State
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Veebyes
RO# 11224
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Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 08:51:43
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I must be missing something. What makes this boat too small for where it is used? Seems the blunder they made was going out in strong winds or not reefing their sails to suit the wind. What makes them morons when people by the thousand make the run to the Bahamas in small boats? What happens when their engines fail? The Gulf Stream picks them up & their next stop is Ireland or Norway. These guys were in a lake, albeit a big cold one.
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Homeport: Bermuda
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HaveADay
RO# 30763
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Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 09:07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Veebyes
I must be missing something. What makes this boat too small for where it is used? Seems the blunder they made was going out in strong winds or not reefing their sails to suit the wind. What makes them morons when people by the thousand make the run to the Bahamas in small boats? What happens when their engines fail? The Gulf Stream picks them up & their next stop is Ireland or Norway. These guys were in a lake, albeit a big cold one.
My view of what makes them morons is that twice in the span of twelve months they've been out in a very small boat (though I would agree that on a calmer day it's not too small) in conditions that proved too much for the combination of boat and crew to handle. A year ago I thought their needing to be rescued was the result of being a little too agressive and making what turned out in hindsight to be the wrong call, but a call we've probably all made in one form or another. Now fast forward 12 months and nearly the same thing happens and I feel the assesment changes. This time they've got the benefit of the experience from a year ago but yet they still make the same decision and compound that questionable decision by being out in a small craft advisory with heavy gusts in a 16 foot boat not wearing (or keeping close enough to don in the event of trouble) PFDs. Now, in my opinion, we're firmly into moron land.
Ben
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Have A Day - 2001 Cruisers 4450 |
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Homeport: Chicago, IL
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HaveADay
RO# 30763
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Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 09:10:08
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quote:
Originally posted by In the know
quote:
Originally posted by HaveADay
Mike,
You've plainly put a lot more time and thought into the topic than I have and make a much better argument against billing than my flippant comment for billing. Your points are spot on and I can't disagree. That said, like everything else in life the challenge comes at the fringe. Your arguments clearly point out the limitations of billing a consumer of rescue services, my thought of billing came from an individual behaving at the fringe and you point out that can have an affect on someone more in the middle of the curve. That's not an acceptable situation, however, this situation is still troubling to me. The city spent how much responding to this guy? They had three boats on scene, two helicopters and countless surface assets. A year ago when many of the same assets were utilized it was easy enough to look at the situation, wonder what he was doing out but attribute it to one questionable decision and figure he learned his lesson. A year later it seems awfully clear the only lesson he learned was that if he gets in trouble of his own creation there's an army of resources standing by to bail him out. One just searches for some consequence, some dis-incentive.
Ben
So who determines where the "fringe" as you put it is?
One could argue that every SAR is a result of one's own creation.
The man, albeit uses questionable judgment, is entitled to SAR efforts as is everyone else.
No one, and that's Mike's point that I agreed with. That doesn't stop me from being frustrated that tax payer dollars were spent and first responder lives were risked to save the same guy twice in conditions his combination of vessel and crew wasn't able to handle.
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Have A Day - 2001 Cruisers 4450 |
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Homeport: Chicago, IL
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MikeeH
RO# 6342
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Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 09:13:37
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Mike is spot on wth the billing issue. Just look at how many people try to drive victims suffering possible cardiac events to the ER in a POV because they want to avoid an ambulance bill.
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Mike
I recently realized that at this stage of my life I'm now wise enough to know better, but old enough not to give a damn.
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Homeport: Still Pond, MD
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L. Keith
RO# 1615
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Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 09:16:41
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I'm missing this also Veebyes, this guy was sailing a proven one design just out from his yacht club, most likely him or other members are out every day doing the same thing. Biggest failure was not wearing a PFD and some sort of thermal protection.
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Homeport: N. Gulf of Mexico
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ronp
RO# 23477
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Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 09:50:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Radioactive
From article: "... can't teach an old dog new tricks".
Well, either the old dog learns, or he will keep doing this till "he gets it right" and is no longer a problem...
Dogs this dumb don't get old.
He went in the drink last year and got separated from the boat, and probably lived only because he had a life jacket on. So this year he's out a month earlier and doesn't wear one?
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Thanks,
Ron |
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Homeport: Amityville, NY
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dancerscap
RO# 20150
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Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 12:34:27
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Someone needs to teach that old dog how to reef a sail and when.
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Homeport: Hudson,Fl.
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Golfman25
RO# 1239
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Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 12:47:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Veebyes
I must be missing something. What makes this boat too small for where it is used? Seems the blunder they made was going out in strong winds or not reefing their sails to suit the wind. What makes them morons when people by the thousand make the run to the Bahamas in small boats? What happens when their engines fail? The Gulf Stream picks them up & their next stop is Ireland or Norway. These guys were in a lake, albeit a big cold one.
There is no freeboard on that boat. Looks like a 2 footer could crash over that thing. Lake Mich. has short choppy waves. That boat is for small inland lakes.
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Homeport: Algonquin
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JeffR
RO# 19718
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Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 13:20:50
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For you fellow Chicago guys saying the boat is too small...you can't tell me that you've never been out on the lake when they're having a regatta outside of Belmont. These are small sailing dinghies, with young learning sailors, and usually not extremely calm water. In addition, the guy was near shore. I've met more than one sailboater with boats at least as small as this one that have crossed the lake and will continue to cross the lake (not saying I agree with it).
You're dead on when you say that the waves are short and steep, and we all know it can get bad quickly, but IMHO, the guy made a mistake, bad call on his part, plain and simple.
Not even going to debate whether he should have known better after the first event, and I'm not defending him or his decision. But, the boat is not too small for the lake - it was taken out in conditions either beyond it's intended use, or beyond the abilities of the captain, or both.
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Homeport: Chicago, IL
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Capt. Bill1
RO# 2017
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Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 13:31:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Golfman25
quote:
Originally posted by Veebyes
I must be missing something. What makes this boat too small for where it is used? Seems the blunder they made was going out in strong winds or not reefing their sails to suit the wind. What makes them morons when people by the thousand make the run to the Bahamas in small boats? What happens when their engines fail? The Gulf Stream picks them up & their next stop is Ireland or Norway. These guys were in a lake, albeit a big cold one.
That boat is for small inland lakes.
Baloney. Some one else might have sailed that same boat on that same day on that same lake, with no problems.
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The two most common elements on Earth are oxygen and stupidity.
Great, now take it to NBR. |
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Homeport: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale
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Golfman25
RO# 1239
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Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 21:16:29
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quote:
Originally posted by JeffR
For you fellow Chicago guys saying the boat is too small...you can't tell me that you've never been out on the lake when they're having a regatta outside of Belmont. These are small sailing dinghies, with young learning sailors, and usually not extremely calm water. In addition, the guy was near shore. I've met more than one sailboater with boats at least as small as this one that have crossed the lake and will continue to cross the lake (not saying I agree with it).
You're dead on when you say that the waves are short and steep, and we all know it can get bad quickly, but IMHO, the guy made a mistake, bad call on his part, plain and simple.
Not even going to debate whether he should have known better after the first event, and I'm not defending him or his decision. But, the boat is not too small for the lake - it was taken out in conditions either beyond it's intended use, or beyond the abilities of the captain, or both.
I think you're comparing apples and oranges. I have seen the regata's along Belmont. They use those little "toy" boats -- flip them over and keep going. They also have several going at a time, so there is immediate help.
You capsize this guy's boat and that old geezer ain't flipping it over. That boat is too small for the lake in anything but ideal conditions. Early spring and late fall are the worst times. As I recall, that lake took down a 36 foot Tiara a few years back just 2 mile off Waukegan harbor. The guy is a dope.
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Homeport: Algonquin
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rommer
RO# 12280
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Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 21:40:31
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeeH
Mike is spot on wth the billing issue. Just look at how many people try to drive victims suffering possible cardiac events to the ER in a POV because they want to avoid an ambulance bill.
Based on my last ambulance ride, it's cheaper to take a stretch limo.
FWIW - I no longer do my yearly donation to the ambulance core, volunteer my ass. They can't have it both ways in my book.
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Boats, yup, 5 of em...
WLC - We love Champlin's! |
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Homeport: Liberty Landing Marina, NJ
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HaveADay
RO# 30763
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Posted - Apr 19 2012 : 21:54:43
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quote:
Originally posted by JeffR
For you fellow Chicago guys saying the boat is too small...you can't tell me that you've never been out on the lake when they're having a regatta outside of Belmont. These are small sailing dinghies, with young learning sailors, and usually not extremely calm water. In addition, the guy was near shore. I've met more than one sailboater with boats at least as small as this one that have crossed the lake and will continue to cross the lake (not saying I agree with it).
You're dead on when you say that the waves are short and steep, and we all know it can get bad quickly, but IMHO, the guy made a mistake, bad call on his part, plain and simple.
Not even going to debate whether he should have known better after the first event, and I'm not defending him or his decision. But, the boat is not too small for the lake - it was taken out in conditions either beyond it's intended use, or beyond the abilities of the captain, or both.
I slip out of Belmont, I can tell you I've seen them cancel the match races on a number of occasions for conditions. When they do the races in addition to a flotilla of the sail boats (with all participants in PFDs) there's a committee boat and at least a couple of RIBs that act as safety boats.
I agree the guy made a bad call, the part where he's made basically the same bad call two years in a row is what separates the fully functional from the mental midgets.
Ben
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Have A Day - 2001 Cruisers 4450 |
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Homeport: Chicago, IL
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JeffR
RO# 19718
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Posted - Apr 20 2012 : 08:31:41
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Golfman & Haveaday - please reread my post. My response - as well as others - (while maybe a stretch example) is directed at the matter-of-fact comments that the boat is too small for the lake. It is not too small for the lake. It might have been too small for the conditions at the time, but again, that was a bad decision on the "captain's" part. It all comes right back to his decision to go out in conditions that either he or his vessel could not handle.
If you're using the 36' Tiara reference for me, it's unnecessary. I've never doubted or questioned the power of any body of water, or Mother Nature,
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Homeport: Chicago, IL
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HaveADay
RO# 30763
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Posted - Apr 20 2012 : 08:44:01
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Jeff,
Gotcha, I was trying to clarify that I believe that given the conditions and his previous run ins with weather it seems awfully clear that this combination of vessel and captain had little business out on the water. Sounds like we're saying basically the same thing.
Ben
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Have A Day - 2001 Cruisers 4450 |
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Homeport: Chicago, IL
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PascalG
RO# 12212
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Posted - Apr 20 2012 : 09:24:55
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Questioning the guy's skills based on a newspaper report is funny... I have to wonder how many of those saying the boat is too small have ever sailed anything! I guess they have never got caught in deteriorating weather which is obviously a lot easier to deal with when the only skills required is pushing the throttle to get home...
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Pascal
1970 Hatteras 53 MY
26' Starfish sloop
12' Westphal Catboat
16' Hobie Cat
13' Sandbarhopper
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Homeport: Miami, FL
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Golfman25
RO# 1239
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Posted - Apr 20 2012 : 14:11:14
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quote:
Originally posted by JeffR
Golfman & Haveaday - please reread my post. My response - as well as others - (while maybe a stretch example) is directed at the matter-of-fact comments that the boat is too small for the lake. It is not too small for the lake. It might have been too small for the conditions at the time, but again, that was a bad decision on the "captain's" part. It all comes right back to his decision to go out in conditions that either he or his vessel could not handle.
If you're using the 36' Tiara reference for me, it's unnecessary. I've never doubted or questioned the power of any body of water, or Mother Nature,
It is really a distinction without a difference. The Lake is suitable for that boat maybe a handful of times per year -- primarily July and August. Any other time, IMO you're asking for trouble. This guy has found it twice. 3 strikes and he might be out.
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Homeport: Algonquin
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In the know
RO# 20824
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Posted - Apr 20 2012 : 14:18:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Golfman25
quote:
Originally posted by JeffR
Golfman & Haveaday - please reread my post. My response - as well as others - (while maybe a stretch example) is directed at the matter-of-fact comments that the boat is too small for the lake. It is not too small for the lake. It might have been too small for the conditions at the time, but again, that was a bad decision on the "captain's" part. It all comes right back to his decision to go out in conditions that either he or his vessel could not handle.
If you're using the 36' Tiara reference for me, it's unnecessary. I've never doubted or questioned the power of any body of water, or Mother Nature,
It is really a distinction without a difference. The Lake is suitable for that boat maybe a handful of times per year -- primarily July and August. Any other time, IMO you're asking for trouble. This guy has found it twice. 3 strikes and he might be out.
You can tell that from a picture of the boat?
Clearly, you have never sailed.
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The enemy of society - the HUTAL |
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Homeport: The Ocean State
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HaveADay
RO# 30763
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Posted - Apr 20 2012 : 16:20:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Golfman25
quote:
Originally posted by JeffR
Golfman & Haveaday - please reread my post. My response - as well as others - (while maybe a stretch example) is directed at the matter-of-fact comments that the boat is too small for the lake. It is not too small for the lake. It might have been too small for the conditions at the time, but again, that was a bad decision on the "captain's" part. It all comes right back to his decision to go out in conditions that either he or his vessel could not handle.
If you're using the 36' Tiara reference for me, it's unnecessary. I've never doubted or questioned the power of any body of water, or Mother Nature,
It is really a distinction without a difference. The Lake is suitable for that boat maybe a handful of times per year -- primarily July and August. Any other time, IMO you're asking for trouble. This guy has found it twice. 3 strikes and he might be out.
I think you're overstating it with regards to size of the boat. That boat is suitable for the lake a lot of days. The trouble is that a lot of days it's not and this guy doesn't seem to be able to gauge which is which.
Ben
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Have A Day - 2001 Cruisers 4450 |
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Homeport: Chicago, IL
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L. Keith
RO# 1615
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Posted - Apr 20 2012 : 22:14:31
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My Great Uncle was a Light House Keeper for the United States Lighthouse Service and he sailed a 14' sloop anywhere from 12 to 35 miles offshore (Pass the Line of Demarcation) to his duty stations (Chandeleur, Ship Shoal, Pass Au Loutre', Main Pass, South Pass) in the GoM for close to 35 years. He lived to be 104 y/o and all of his 14 children lived full lives into their adulthood even though they sailed with him and to/from his offshore assignments along with supplies for a 30 day stay in a boat smaller than the one pictured in the article.
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Homeport: N. Gulf of Mexico
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Bliss
RO# 2743
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Posted - Apr 21 2012 : 07:12:06
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Veebyes above mentions reefing. I was in Chicago the day of the dunking. On that day, if I were the Captain and in that boat, conservative foresail selection and main sail reefing would have been done before leaving the dock.
When do you reef?? Immediately on first thinking about it!
Dumby or not, I feel sorry for the guy. He is going to take lots of heat.
What model boat is it? Does anyone here know?
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Homeport: Reef Point Racine, WI
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L. Keith
RO# 1615
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Bliss
RO# 2743
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Posted - Apr 21 2012 : 13:37:15
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If memory serves, there was a fleet of them on cans in the south end of Monroe Harbor.
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Homeport: Reef Point Racine, WI
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dragonfly1203
RO# 32885
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Posted - Apr 22 2012 : 10:13:18
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As a Chicago girl
the only thing i found unusual about the story was he mananged to do it on the exact same day one year later.
after moving to Florida, and have conversations down here
i realized... i did not know sailboats were supposed to sail upright! I had always only seen them at angles.
And they sound like they were not even outside the breakwater.
They don't even publish the number of boats/boaters they rescue on an ongoing basis.
and people have died from falling off the seawall into the lake.
Lake Michigan is ALWAYS deadly, even in the middle of summer... it never warms up. and the waves are odd, due to the lenght/width issues of the lake. and i have seen the weather change in half an hour. the distance between blemont and montorse harbors is about a mile and a half...My only question about brains is Why did they not replace their lifejackets after last time. And why were they not wearing them? If you sail in Lake Micigan, you run the risk of getting dumped. Its just a fact of life you learn to deal with. these guys were not prepared that way. IMHO, size of the boat had very little to do with what happened.
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Homeport: fl
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HaveADay
RO# 30763
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Posted - Apr 22 2012 : 20:33:54
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quote:
Originally posted by dragonfly1203
As a Chicago girl
the only thing i found unusual about the story was he mananged to do it on the exact same day one year later.
after moving to Florida, and have conversations down here
i realized... i did not know sailboats were supposed to sail upright! I had always only seen them at angles.
And they sound like they were not even outside the breakwater.
They don't even publish the number of boats/boaters they rescue on an ongoing basis.
and people have died from falling off the seawall into the lake.
Lake Michigan is ALWAYS deadly, even in the middle of summer... it never warms up. and the waves are odd, due to the lenght/width issues of the lake. and i have seen the weather change in half an hour. the distance between blemont and montorse harbors is about a mile and a half...My only question about brains is Why did they not replace their lifejackets after last time. And why were they not wearing them? If you sail in Lake Micigan, you run the risk of getting dumped. Its just a fact of life you learn to deal with. these guys were not prepared that way. IMHO, size of the boat had very little to do with what happened.
There's no breakwall north of oak street. They were in unprotected water and from the more detailed follow-up account were about a mile offshore when they got dumped. Given the size of the sea conditions and wind speed the size of the boat seems entirely relevant. When an advisory is issued it's called a SMALL craft advisory because size is highly relevant. NOAA also leaves it up to the operator to figure out if they have a small craft because the combination of size, characteristics and operator skill all combine to account for what vessel can deal with what conditions. This guy has twice proved his vessel under his command unable to handle the conditions he's been out in. The first time around seemed a lot easier to shrug off as the weather he was in was the result of a quick moving storm. This time around he was out in consistently adverse conditions and just got beat by them.
Ben
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Have A Day - 2001 Cruisers 4450 |
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Homeport: Chicago, IL
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In the know
RO# 20824
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Posted - Apr 23 2012 : 07:52:53
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quote:
Originally posted by HaveADay
quote:
Originally posted by dragonfly1203
As a Chicago girl
the only thing i found unusual about the story was he mananged to do it on the exact same day one year later.
after moving to Florida, and have conversations down here
i realized... i did not know sailboats were supposed to sail upright! I had always only seen them at angles.
And they sound like they were not even outside the breakwater.
They don't even publish the number of boats/boaters they rescue on an ongoing basis.
and people have died from falling off the seawall into the lake.
Lake Michigan is ALWAYS deadly, even in the middle of summer... it never warms up. and the waves are odd, due to the lenght/width issues of the lake. and i have seen the weather change in half an hour. the distance between blemont and montorse harbors is about a mile and a half...My only question about brains is Why did they not replace their lifejackets after last time. And why were they not wearing them? If you sail in Lake Micigan, you run the risk of getting dumped. Its just a fact of life you learn to deal with. these guys were not prepared that way. IMHO, size of the boat had very little to do with what happened.
There's no breakwall north of oak street. They were in unprotected water and from the more detailed follow-up account were about a mile offshore when they got dumped. Given the size of the sea conditions and wind speed the size of the boat seems entirely relevant. When an advisory is issued it's called a SMALL craft advisory because size is highly relevant. NOAA also leaves it up to the operator to figure out if they have a small craft because the combination of size, characteristics and operator skill all combine to account for what vessel can deal with what conditions. This guy has twice proved his vessel under his command unable to handle the conditions he's been out in. The first time around seemed a lot easier to shrug off as the weather he was in was the result of a quick moving storm. This time around he was out in consistently adverse conditions and just got beat by them.
Ben
The boat is not the factor, the Captain's ability is. The Rhodes 19 is a proven one design that experienced mariners have been known to take off shore.
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The enemy of society - the HUTAL |
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Homeport: The Ocean State
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dragonfly1203
RO# 32885
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Posted - Apr 23 2012 : 21:08:53
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the Captain's ability is agreed!
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Homeport: fl
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EdFitz
RO# 32779
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Posted - Apr 30 2012 : 13:26:51
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For those that say the the boat was too small for the lake:
The Edmund Fitzgerald capsized on Lake Superior, so I guess THAT boat was too small for that lake.
It's not the size of the boat in the water, but the size of the brain in the captain.
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Ed
2001 Bayliner Ciera 245 |
Edited by - EdFitz on Apr 30 2012 13:28:11 |
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Homeport: OC, MD
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Stupidity knows no bounds...
