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gpc
RO# 19394
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 Posted - Jul 19 2012 : 11:00:09
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Tested the boat yesterday: no more problems.
The engine now runs fine without any issue.
Fuel pressure is up and stable at any rpm
I will not remove the filter on the pressure regulator - see VP bulletin - but I will clean at the beginning and end of the season.
I am REALLY glad this is over!
Thanks for all help
GP
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Edited by - gpc on Aug 13 2012 06:34:30
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Homeport: DANVERS, MA
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meide
RO# 13472
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Posted - Jul 19 2012 : 12:13:13
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I have noticed the same symptoms when the connector to the fuel pump was disconnected. I think I was hearing detonation due to a lean mixture. Engine started and ran fine, but would not accelerate past 3000 rpm. Everything was back to normal as soon as I connected the fuel pump.
Mike
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Homeport: Pasadena MD
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Sandy
RO# 1159
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Posted - Jul 19 2012 : 13:44:58
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I think Mike may be right . Perhaps either poor octane rating fuel (old fuel or phase separation?), air in the lines, fuel or related vent restriction, bad sensor giving the ecm bad mix advice, ...for some reason may be causing engine knock ,which is detected by the knock sensor and the ECM then retards timing and performance . But you would think the diagnostic scanner would surely show the knock sensor reacting to out of parameter conditions. The pulse width increase is clearly trying to enrichen the mix. Even just a code reader would probably show a tripped code so that's curious yours does not.
It's not particularly easy to rig but test running on a portable clean tank of fresh fuel could tell you if bad fuel is a problem, but I'd empty the remote fuel filter into a clear container and se if it settles out 1st ( & refill with clean fresh gas , putting a little teflon or silicone grease on the filter gasket or at least a little oil to aid sealing. )
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| Sandy |
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Homeport: The Vineyard
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gpc
RO# 19394
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Posted - Jul 19 2012 : 15:13:05
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Hello,
first of all thanks for the inputs.
- I will check the gas pump connection first.
- octane/separation: I have twins and I swap tanks without any change. The other motor runs fine.
- knock: that was my first idea. As I said the Diacon/Rinda software does not shows any error code.There are also no trace of any reaction of the knock sensor...I agree with the fact that the increased pulse of the injector is a try to enrich the mix.
Any suggestion about the spark advance?
GP
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Homeport: DANVERS, MA
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Sandy
RO# 1159
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Posted - Jul 19 2012 : 23:09:05
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That's good you have the Marine Diacom, as it comes with the MEFI 4 diagnostic manual on the CD. There should be procedures for checking out each component, but finding the right procedure can be a pretty good hunt.
When you begin to read up on chapter 2 ( at least that's what it is in my hard copy manual) you will see that a lot of sensors' output to the ECM can affect ign. timing, including at least the Engine Coolant Sensor (ECT), Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor (MAP), Intake Air Pressure Sensor (IAT), Crankshaft Position Sensor (CKP), the knock Sensor (KS) , and maybe(?) to small extent the Camshaft Position Sensor (CMP) which allows you to set Cam Retard with help of the Diacom when turning the distributor base (This does not change timing though).
It's possible one of those sensors is almost out of proper range but not quite enough to set a code.
Or one of those sensors is just reacting to a fuel issue that is ultimately causing the ECM to retard timing.... Or vice versa.
FWIW, on my 2003 blue 5.7L MPI's , for 2 years I had an issue at moderate cruise speed of very occasional maybe 4-10 second sudden several hundred rpm reduction of both engines . Never set a code and it never showed on the Diacom or techmate for me or Crusader dealer techs as it wouldn't manifest when the scans were being done. Finally it was found to be a slightly-bent harness connector pin at the fuel pump relay. I couldn't even see that it was bent but the tech picked it up after a vigorous harness wiggle test finally made the fuel go off & on. Pin was carefully straightened , & voila ...no more hesitation issues for years now.
-So if it's not throwing a code some issues can take some time to track down or you may get lucky or smart.
But, since you can predict when your issue will begin, that seems like a good time you should start recording sensor parameters with the Diacom to see what changes & something may pop up as a strong suspect or lead back to one. If you have a good recording you can keep checking data and graphs at the dock or home, and if you are unsure sure about something, you can take your laptop to your Volvo tech or email a copy of the recording for remote analysis.
Best luck.
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| Sandy |
Edited by - Sandy on Jul 19 2012 23:58:46 |
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Homeport: The Vineyard
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gpc
RO# 19394
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Posted - Jul 20 2012 : 03:24:45
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Sandy,
Thank you very much for your help. I am courrently analyzing the last parameter scan i took.
In addition i will run and record parameters on the other engine (works fine) at predetermined load conditions ( throttle %) and rpm ( ie 1000 - 2000 - 2500 - 3000 - 3500 rpm). Comparing the readings shall be an help to see which sensor is giving the bad signal.
Do you know if somewhere i can find a list of correct parameter values ?
Thanks again
GP
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Homeport: DANVERS, MA
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Sandy
RO# 1159
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Posted - Jul 21 2012 : 00:25:12
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gpc- For starters , I'd suggest looking and printing out section 5 p. 5 & 6 (5-5, 5-6) in the diagnostic manual just for some base values . This table is headed "Typical Engine Scan Tool List"(idle Operating Temerature/Neutral/Sea Level)
. But it may be worth your while to put on your waders and troll throughthe whole CD diagnostic manual . This way you will become more familiar with each component function description and suggested values and how it relates to the rest of the system. Farther well into the manual in section 5 you will get into diagnostic basics and schematics and eventually in (5-52 ) the beginning of the On-board Diagnostic System Check and the whole long series of checks with yes or no response (with expected values) that lead you to any ofmany different add'l yes and no flow chart-like tests or questions to continue to narrow down the suspects. To save lot of time make sure you ignore the entries that are not for your size engine. Section 5 alone is about 172 pages.
But also momentarily skip ahead to section 7-1 for the index of symptoms to choose from , particularly Lack of Power, Sluggish or Spongy Symptom beginning on 7-7. if you see something that applies , decide whether yes or no answers and it will direct you forward or back to the other sequential diagnostic tests , again giving values for which to check .
Wish I could be more help, but you have to determine all this stuff as you see or test it. Once you read it you will know more than I , ...not hard that.
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| Sandy |
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Homeport: The Vineyard
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jtybt15
RO# 3300
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Posted - Jul 21 2012 : 01:18:00
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A knock sensor doesn't know the difference between detonation and a mechanical problem like maybe lifter leaking oil and not pumping up.
Just another thing to be aware of.
I like the old/basic motors with the pre electronic stuff. The more sophisticated things become, the harder it is to work on and a rather insignificant problem can shut down the system.
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Charlie
There is much to be said, in a world like ours, for taking the world as you find it and fishing with a worm.-Bliss Perry, 1904
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Homeport: Ca
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gpc
RO# 19394
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Posted - Jul 21 2012 : 14:58:22
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At the boat today. I was looking to get a parameter recording from bot engines to compare value.
Hooked up a gauge to the high pressure side of fuel cell and found the pressure was oscillating violently at idle (fm 50 to 70 psi). Same oscillation at any speed between 500 to 3,500 rpm.
Repeated the same measurement on the other engine: gauge dead on 50 psi - no oscillation.
At this point I believe the loss of power and the consequent decrement of advance and increase of injector opening was a consequence of a fuel starvation. The noise ("clank") maybe was originated by the pump? I was not able to replicate the noise but - being not under load - the fuel request to the pump was obviously reduced.
I am planning to check the fuel regulator and repeat the pressure test before replacing the pump.
Any suggestion is welcome!
GP
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Homeport: DANVERS, MA
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jtybt15
RO# 3300
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Posted - Jul 21 2012 : 17:08:38
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Not sure exactly what you got planned...but it's virtually impossible for pressure to swing/change as fast as you make it sound. My guess it's an electrical connection or other electrical problem which is sending a reading to the ECM making do what it's doing. Not sure what the clank is at this point but we're not able to tell how loud or the sound being a clink or clank.
Check them connectors!!!
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Charlie
There is much to be said, in a world like ours, for taking the world as you find it and fishing with a worm.-Bliss Perry, 1904
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Homeport: Ca
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Sandy
RO# 1159
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Posted - Jul 22 2012 : 00:05:29
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FWIW- The spec for the Crusader 5.7L MPI HP pump output is "57-62 psi at WOT" for return system and "57-60 psi rb2rb2@gr5tgr5t WOT" for returnless system like mine. I've never had occasion to check mine so I can't confirm rock steady.
Does the erratic pump feel noticeably hotter than the steady one? You might try that presssure test again and include the harness wiggle test around the connctions and relays. It would be nice to be able to check for air-entrainment in the fuel flow, but if you were to try that ( with temp. clear line insert??), it would be a lot safer on the suction side.
Once the retained fuel pressure is relieved, it looks like removal of the pressure regulator is just a matter of easily removing a clip and a hose, while being careful to retain a big & little o-ring on the regulator when you pull it off. You might pull that off and dump contents into a viewing container, and could swap regulators or pumps with the other engine. I think the regulator is essentially a spring-loaded flow valve .
Do you hear the "clank" each time you exceed 3000 rpm under load, and is it just one clank, then RPM reduction?
Be really careful when dealing with connections on the pressure side . 50-70 psi of fuel spray can cause a lot of problems, health and fire-wise . Be sure to put a rag around any purging points to help contain the fuel.
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| Sandy |
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Homeport: The Vineyard
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gpc
RO# 19394
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Posted - Jul 22 2012 : 04:47:13
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Hi Sandy,
I already checked the electrical cnnection and harness. They lok fine and the power to the pump is constant.
I will check the temperature of the pump -good point. This pump is more noisy than the other.
I will start rebuilding the pressure regulator and re-test. If i get similar results i will replace the pump.
Regarding the noise: it is a single "clank" and immediately i have the power reduction
Thanks again
GP
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Homeport: DANVERS, MA
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muc
RO# 11715
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Chesadena
RO# 31247
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gpc
RO# 19394
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Posted - Jul 31 2012 : 19:43:10
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Fred,based on what I found I believe it will be the pump or the fuel pressure regulator.
I have the parts on order - shall be here by Thursday and then I will start repair....
Hopefully I will be able to get out with the boat on Saturday!
I will post the findings.
GP
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Homeport: DANVERS, MA
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gpc
RO# 19394
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Posted - Aug 06 2012 : 08:23:35
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Quick update.
Got new fuel regulator ( 3858967)- it comes complete with o-ring and filter.
Depressurized lines and removed the old regulator. Looking from the pain it was the original fitted on the engine. The filter was almost closed by debris. Decided to replace the regulator with new one and clean the older later.
VP on bulletin P-23-7 suggests to gently pry off filter and replace it with clip 21491831.
My point is that the debris are coming from the inside of the pump (paint etc) they will go to the injectors. Other engine works fine so I decided to keep the filter on for the moment.
Took the boat out and tested over 3,000 rpm: the "clank" is disappeared and the engine seems to run fine.
Noticed the gas pump is whining (there is a LONG thread on this on the net). Noticed that the fuel/water separator supplied by VP on new pumps (3847644) are bigger than the one originally installed (3862228). Will try new filter before getting to the pump.
So far so good... will keep posting situation update wit the next test .
Thanks to everyone for the help
GP
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Homeport: DANVERS, MA
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Chesadena
RO# 31247
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Posted - Aug 06 2012 : 10:22:03
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gpc:
Glad to hear you are making progress. You probably already read that the whining is indicitive of the high pressure pump being starved of fuel. I'd be wary of running the pump too long in that condition since it could cause the pump to overheat and fail instantly or be damaged beyond repair. Good luck with the new filter.
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Homeport: Pasadena, MD
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mkivbren
RO# 27219
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Posted - Aug 09 2012 : 00:15:53
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Too bad I didn't see this thread sooner. There is also a service bulletin regarding the volvo FPRs. First I replaced his FPR then we had backfiring so had to send out the injectors. I think the service bulletin has you removing the screens; seemingly a bandaid fix. This was on 04 5.7s. I would suggest sending your injectors out asap.
Edit- I see you found the bulletin.
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Edited by - mkivbren on Aug 09 2012 00:17:30 |
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Homeport: Bush River, MD
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gpc
RO# 19394
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Posted - Aug 09 2012 : 17:07:05
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Hi Bren
thank you for your answer. Yes I read the bulletin and I decided NOT to remove the screen simply because the other engine is running fine. I know there is a long story about VP fuel cell's paint flaking etc. From now on I will clear the regulator filter on each engine every season.
I will try the boat during weekend and I will post the results. Really hope the issue is solved...
If not the following steps will be to check injectors and ignition system. Really hope not to have to go there.
Thanks again
GP
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Homeport: DANVERS, MA
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Volvo Penta 5.7 GXi-E 2003 - loss of power solved
