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 Winterizing & Springizing
 Winterizing 5.0 liter Volvo-Penta engines with raw
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Author Previous Topic: draining block on mercruiser 454 for winterization Topic Next Topic: Winterizing & Springizing - good topics  

Blue Cruiser

RO# 23441

Posted - Oct 08 2012 :  00:26:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We have raw water cooled engines. Last year our mechanic removed the brass drain plug from the rear of each manifold (2 per engine) and removed the brass screw cap from the raw water drain hose (one per engine) which can also used to fresh water flush the engine. He placed the open drain hose on the engine room floor to drain water. Since each drain plug and drain hose properly drained he did not probe with wire. At the raw water pump he removed the top hose (inlet) and plugged it with a rounded 3/4"PVC cap, rounded side first into the hose, and re-installed the hose clamp. He then used a spare hose to hook up to the inlet side of the raw water pump to his five gallon bucket. He put three gallons of -60 degree F purple boat antifreeze into the bucket and had me run that engine until almost three gallons of antifreeze had been pumped through. We then did the same for the other engine. Brass manifold drain plugs and drain hose screw cap for each engine remained off until the spring boating season.

Why did he not start by warming up each engine so that a possible closed thermostat would not hinder the distribution of the antifreeze? Comments on this procedure would be appreciated

Homeport:

Blue Cruiser

RO# 23441

Posted - Oct 09 2012 :  10:44:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
After thinking more about the winterization last year the boat was operated shortly before the mechanic arrived to start the process. Therefore the thermostat was open.


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Blue Cruiser

RO# 23441

Posted - Oct 20 2012 :  19:42:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This year I watched our mechanic winterize our 5.0 liter Volvo Penta raw water cooled gas powered twin engines. He did not warm up the engines before winterizing. He removed the brass drain plug from the rear of each manifold (2 per engine) and removed the brass screw cap from the raw water drain hose (one per engine) which can be also used to flush the engine. He placed the opened drain hose for each engine on the engine room floor to drain the water. Since each drain plug and drain hose properly drained he did not remove the drain hose nor did he probe the openings with wire or nail. At the raw water pump he removed the top hose (inlet) and plugged it with a rounded 3/4" PVC cap, rounded side first into the hole to facilitate removal in the spring and re-installed the hose clamp to hold the cap in. He then removed the bottom hose from the raw water pump to drain the pump. He then re-installed the brass manifold drain plugs (two per engine) and he re-installed the brass screw cap on the drain hose (one per engine). He then connected a spare radiator hose with a right angle bend to the top (inlet) raw water pump where the inlet hose had been removed and capped. He connected the other end of spare radiator hose with clear hose to a spare bilge pump in the bottom of his five gallon bucket. He filled the five gallon bucket with 3 gallons of -100 degree boat antifreeze. The spare bilge pump wires had alligator clips to be connected to a boat battery if needed. While he watched in the engine room he had me run the engine at idle and occasionally with a little throttle to fun 3 gallons of antifreeze through that engine. We then performed the same procedure on the other engine. One engine did not draw the antifreeze from the bucket so he connected the pump wires with alligator clips to a boat battery. After running 3 gallons of antifreeze through each engine he then removed the manifold brass drain plugs and removed the brass screw cap from the raw water drain hose on each engine. He placed the drain hoses on the engine room floor and placed the 4 brass manifold plugs in a clear plastic bag on top of the port engine.





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Anchor Management

RO# 32420



Posted - Oct 25 2012 :  10:29:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I havent had I'O's in many years but I don't remember going through that detailed of a process. If I recall, I put the muffs on the outdrive, ran the boat for 5 minutes and switched over the the pink stuff. Ran a couple gallons through and I was done. I don't remember taking out thermostats or plugs either. I did that for years and never had a problem. Was I lucky? I live in NY so it can get quite cold.

-------------------------
2006 52 Searay Sedan Bridge

Edited by - Anchor Management on Oct 25 2012 17:17:31

Homeport: Haverstraw, NY Go to Top of Page

Captain_Rick

RO# 33100

Posted - Oct 25 2012 :  14:52:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Anchor Management

I havent had I'O's in many years but I don't remember going through that detailed of a process. If I recall, I put the mittens on the outdrive, ran the boat for 5 minutes and switched over the the pink stuff. Ran a couple gallons through and I was done. I don't remember taking out thermostats or plugs either. I did that for years and never had a problem. Was I lucky? I live in NY so it can get quite cold.



Maybe a bit lucky. Just running pink stuff through without first draining the block may not purge all the water, and diluted pink stuff doesn't protect very well. Using a refractometer would ensure protection.

When I had a boat that I had hauled for the winter, I would use automotive antifreeze to winterize the engines, collecting any runoff. In the spring, I would flush before splashing the boat, again collecting the runoff and disposing of it properly. The green stuff protects much better, so dilution was not an issue.

Now I leave the boat in the water over the winter, so I'm back to the pink stuff. I drain the heat exchangers, changing the anodes in the process, and run pink stuff through.



Homeport: Deleted Go to Top of Page

Anchor Management

RO# 32420



Posted - Oct 25 2012 :  15:33:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sound advise. As it relates to te theromstat, how can you be sure it is open during the flushing process? Is it required to be open for full protection?

-------------------------
2006 52 Searay Sedan Bridge

Homeport: Haverstraw, NY Go to Top of Page

cwms

RO# 7357

Posted - Oct 25 2012 :  16:49:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Blue Cruiser

After thinking more about the winterization last year the boat was operated shortly before the mechanic arrived to start the process. Therefore the thermostat was open.



The thermostat is constantly opening and closing. There is no way to know for sure if it is open or closed. When I helped my son winterize his RWC Merc for the first time, I had him remove the T-stat first and then we ran antifreeze thru the engine using ear muffs.



Homeport: VA Go to Top of Page

Captain_Rick

RO# 33100

Posted - Oct 26 2012 :  06:37:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Anchor Management

Sound advise. As it relates to te theromstat, how can you be sure it is open during the flushing process? Is it required to be open for full protection?



I'd always give the engine a good flush with fresh water before winterizing, getting it up to operating temperature in the process.



Homeport: Deleted Go to Top of Page

Gregory S

RO# 2620



Posted - Oct 26 2012 :  07:39:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Even if you run it up to temp, once the cold anti-freeze hits the thermostat, it's likely to close. I always thought that winterizing that way was a crap shoot unless you drain some mix from the block and test it.


Homeport: Norfolk, Va Go to Top of Page

Captain_Rick

RO# 33100

Posted - Oct 26 2012 :  10:03:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gregory S

Even if you run it up to temp, once the cold anti-freeze hits the thermostat, it's likely to close. I always thought that winterizing that way was a crap shoot unless you drain some mix from the block and test it.



That might happen if the thermostat were upstream of the engine block. It's not. The antifreeze is warmed by the engine block before it reaches the thermostat.



Homeport: Deleted Go to Top of Page

Gregory S

RO# 2620



Posted - Oct 26 2012 :  11:00:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If that's the case in raw water cooled engines, then why does a thermostat continually open and close and not just stay open once it reaches operating temperature?


Homeport: Norfolk, Va Go to Top of Page

Captain_Rick

RO# 33100

Posted - Oct 26 2012 :  15:33:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gregory S

If that's the case in raw water cooled engines, then why does a thermostat continually open and close and not just stay open once it reaches operating temperature?



I believe it does stay open. How have you observed it opening and closing?



Homeport: Deleted Go to Top of Page

Gregory S

RO# 2620



Posted - Oct 26 2012 :  15:47:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They definately open and close. I realized that when after an 8 hr boat trip, my thermostat failed in the open position and I couldn't maintain a temp higher than about 120 degrees. Not what I would have expected after the engines had been running at 150 degrees all day. Once thermostat function was explained to me it made sense. Cooling water bypasses the block until the block water is hot enough to open the thermostat. In cool/cold water the thermostat will periodically close to assure high enough operating temps. It's exactly as CWMS described above.


Edited by - Gregory S on Oct 26 2012 15:50:23

Homeport: Norfolk, Va Go to Top of Page

cwms

RO# 7357

Posted - Oct 26 2012 :  20:47:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Gregory. I'm glad someone actually understands how a T-stat works. That it is constantly opening and closing to maintain a set temperature. Leave it open and the engine will never warm up. keep it closed and you cook the engine.


Homeport: VA Go to Top of Page

Gregory S

RO# 2620



Posted - Oct 26 2012 :  21:23:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
you're welcome. I learned after the above incident.


Homeport: Norfolk, Va Go to Top of Page

dl2525

RO# 31205

Posted - Oct 27 2012 :  07:53:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have seen many suggest to warm up the engine before pumping in the antifreeze, but I 100% agree with CWMS that you never know whether the thermostat is open or closed and you risk cracking the block.

I have always drained all the water out of the engine first. I never trust those little petcocks on the side of the block that people say to run a piece of wire through. I take them totally out so I can use a screw driver and break up any sediment that has migrated to that hole. This way the water drains through a 1/2" hole vs. an 1/8" and again there is no question whether or not the majority of the water has been drained. Then I remove the thermostat and reinstall the water neck. I stick my 5 gallon bucket on the swim platform, fill it up with antifreeze, fire up the motor, and watch the engine suck it down. On my 7.4L Volvo it takes about 6 gallons of pink before it comes out the exhaust. I usually have to put an extra one in the bucket while it's sucking it down. I also fog the motor while the pink is going in and just shut it down once it comes out the exhaust.



Edited by - dl2525 on Oct 27 2012 07:55:08

Homeport: NJ Go to Top of Page

Captain_Rick

RO# 33100

Posted - Oct 27 2012 :  09:28:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cwms

Thanks Gregory. I'm glad someone actually understands how a T-stat works. That it is constantly opening and closing to maintain a set temperature. Leave it open and the engine will never warm up. keep it closed and you cook the engine.



Well, you apparently don't understand how an engine thermostat works. An engine thermostat doesn't constantly "open and close" as in "snap open, snap closed" like a thermostat controlling a home heating system is either "on or "off." It will open partially depending on the temperature of the coolant. The point is that running cold antifreeze through a hot engine is not going to result in the antifreeze not getting through the block.
This is due to the way an engine thermostat is designed with dissimilar metals in contact that expand and contract at different rates.

Drop an engine thermostat into boiling water and watch it slowly close as the water cools. (Which I just did, by the way, to confirm my point.) If it "opened and closed," your engine temperature gauge would constantly fluctuate. Cold water passing through the engine block is not going to reach the thermostat at a temperature that will cause it to completely close. This will be confirmed by taking the temperature of the water or antifreeze flowing out of the exhaust when running the engine on earmuffs. Or simply feeling it with your hand. It will be hot.



Homeport: Deleted Go to Top of Page

Gregory S

RO# 2620



Posted - Oct 27 2012 :  10:05:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nobody said it was all or nothing. Your experiment doesn't explain what happened in real life. So, you're saying that once the thermostat is open, it stays that way? That it won't partially open or close, allowing cooling water or anti-freeze to bypass the block and go right out the exhausts? Your perpetuating the myth that a lot of boaters have that once they warm the engine up, they are good to go by running a couple gallons of anti-freeze thru. They have no idea what the thermostat is doing at that time. That's why smart people pull the thermostats out before they run the anti-freeze, or drain the blocks first.


Homeport: Norfolk, Va Go to Top of Page

cwms

RO# 7357

Posted - Oct 27 2012 :  10:39:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Capt. Rick, I'm not saying you are wrong on the partial opening, but totally agree with Greg on this. Why risk how open or closed the T-stat is when it only takes a few minutes to remove it. Once out there is no question whether or not the AF is running thru the block.


Homeport: VA Go to Top of Page

Captain_Rick

RO# 33100

Posted - Oct 28 2012 :  06:23:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gregory S

Nobody said it was all or nothing. Your experiment doesn't explain what happened in real life. So, you're saying that once the thermostat is open, it stays that way? That it won't partially open or close, allowing cooling water or anti-freeze to bypass the block and go right out the exhausts? Your perpetuating the myth that a lot of boaters have that once they warm the engine up, they are good to go by running a couple gallons of anti-freeze thru. They have no idea what the thermostat is doing at that time. That's why smart people pull the thermostats out before they run the anti-freeze, or drain the blocks first.



Sorry. When you said the thermostat "closed," I thought you meant that it closed. And I never advocated not draining the engine block. (See previous: Just running pink stuff through without first draining the block may not purge all the water, and diluted pink stuff doesn't protect very well.) And I did not say it doesn't partially close (see previous: It will open partially depending on the temperature of the coolant.)

Yes, some cooling water will bypass the block. But if you drain the block and then refill it while it's still hot with antifreeze, there is no need to remove the thermostat. I will grant you that if you prefer not to work on a hot engine, it would be advisable to remove the thermostat. I never have, and in 30+ years of boating I've never had a problem. Maybe "most boaters" don't know what the thermostat is doing, and I have an advantage because I do. So be it.

I'm declaring this a dead horse for my purposes.



Homeport: Deleted Go to Top of Page

LouC

RO# 10314

Posted - Oct 28 2012 :  09:35:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This has been discussed many many times on many forums and it is risky at best. The thermostat does cycle open and closed but not all the way open and not all the way closed. One way to see it for yourself is take a pot, hand a stat from a coat hanger wire and heat it up. You will see how it operates then. Most modern stats start to open at 160 (remember that fact) and are fully open at 180. Now if your engine idles at 160 on the gauge and not higher, when you are running it on the water hose, what does that tell you?? That it is starting to open, not all the way open, and that's what you would need to have happen if you want to use this method without draining the block first. If its just starting to open there is not enough flow for the water in the block to exit. And the antifreeze does NOT get warmed by the block until it's sucked in by the circ pump. What happens is, when the stat is closed, the raw water comes in and gets diverted out the manifolds. When the stat opens, hot water comes out the stat, and exits via the exhaust, the antifreeze comes in the raw water flow but gets sucked right into the big hose by the circ pump and then goes in the block, it does not get heated first, only after it gets sucked in.

About the only way to know if thermostat is really open, is to feel the big hose from the thermo neck to the circ pump. When that hose gets too hot to keep your hand on (150*+) then its probably open. I have an IR temp gun and I have taken readings of the intake manifold right under the thermo housing and at 165 on the gauge, the manifold is 155 or so.

Keep in mind that no manufacturer of I/Os or inboards that are raw water cooled ever recommended this procedure, they say to drain manually for FREEZE protection and back fill with AF for CORROSION protection. That's the safest way to do it......


1988 Four Winns 200 Horizon 4.3 OMC Cobra
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi Quadradrive II

Homeport: Long Island NY Go to Top of Page

LouC

RO# 10314

Posted - Nov 02 2012 :  13:38:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just winterized mine yesterday, and again checked what I wrote above. I let the engine idle about 20 min, till the temp gauge registered a little over 160 . Checked the temp of the big hose from the Thermo housing to the waterpump. Warm, not hot. Thermo most likely not open yet . Water in block was hot when I drained it but not hot enough to open the stat. That's why the suck up the AF method is risky. Take 20 mon longer and DRAIN an poke each drain. Put some OMC or similar gasket sealer on the threads of the drain plugs and they will come right out next fall. Put some marine grease on the necks of the Thermo housing where the hoses get clamped on so they don't rust in place. Back fill the engine and manifolds with -100 AF with corrosion inhibitors if you want to use AF. That is the correct way to winterize raw water cooled engines.




1988 Four Winns 200 Horizon 4.3 OMC Cobra
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 Selectrac
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi Quadradrive II

Edited by - LouC on Nov 02 2012 14:41:32

Homeport: Long Island NY Go to Top of Page

edetor

RO# 3699

Posted - Oct 14 2013 :  21:55:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have used the 5 gallon -50 pink run thru the muffs for 14 years on my 99' 5.7 vp and never had a problem. Boat stored in CNY winters inside, not heated, did the same on my mercruiser before that with the same results. Just sayin..


Homeport: Wellesley Island, NY Go to Top of Page

jtybt15

RO# 3300



Posted - Oct 15 2013 :  09:00:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greg, You got the right idea.


Also, depending if you're storing on the hard or leaving in the water, also what type of raw water pick up you have. A 3 way valve would help winterizing.

Drain your cooling system and close the drains. Pour AF from the highest point you want to protect. If from manifolds and risers, fill from both sides.

This is another reason GVP recommended drilling a small hole in the thermostat to purge any air trapped in the system. I drill 2 holes. Turn the engine over a couple times to circulate AF in the raw water pump.

The only reason you need to run the engine is to fog the cylinders.





Charlie

There is much to be said, in a world like ours, for taking the world as you find it and fishing with a worm.-Bliss Perry, 1904



Homeport: Ca Go to Top of Page

KiDa

RO# 16492



Posted - Oct 15 2013 :  20:20:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Take out the T'Stats and re lose the housing. . Run the engine for a few minutes and check for leaks. Run pink through the muffs until the exhaust water comes out solid pink. Replace the T'Stats with new next season.

Every couple of years you should be checking the outdrive and all associated wear parts.


____________


Best Regards,

David
Saint Max
'99 330 Sundancer

==========

Capitalism is to this administration what Judaism was to the Third Reich.

-- Me

Homeport: Hopewell, VA Go to Top of Page

Blue Cruiser

RO# 23441

Posted - Oct 20 2013 :  21:47:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The bottom hose at the raw water pump was reconnected and the hose clamp tightened before running antfreeze through each engine.


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