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 Waterlift muffler help needed
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cmariner32

RO# 7269

Posted - Mar 11 2013 :  22:05:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I recently had the pleasure of burning an exhaust hose due to the elbow crapping out the water flow. In replacing the offending parts, I found my Vernalift muffler flange experienced damage as well. The excess heat apparently melted the resin on the inside of the inlet pipe on the muffler. I called Centek (who purchased Vernalift) to ask about a sleeve that could be inserted (glassed) into the inlet of the muffler. The tech said that the inserts designed for prevention of collapse of the inlet pipe is not intended for that purpose and recommended I custom order a new muffler. Inspecting the muffler, the damage seems to be only on the first 3-4 inches of the inlet pipe. I know very little about waterlift mufflers as this is my first boat with one. There is a crack in the fiberglass that I am pointing to. I had originally planned on re-glassing the inside diameter of the hose flange, but after talking to the tech, I'm beginning to wonder if my frugality is not worth taking the chance. Below are pics showing the muffler and the damage. Any thoughts are appreciated as I ponder how to procced.



My finger is pointing to a crack that apparently is allowing a water leak when I run the engine.
The only thing that works on an old boat.....is the Owner.

Homeport: Clearwater/St. Pete Florida

alexander38

RO# 31123

Posted - Mar 12 2013 :  03:58:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How are you sure no damage was done to the inside of it ? That would be my worry. Fixing the fitting seems to straight forward, clean it up and re-glass it.

Member VYC

Homeport: va. Go to Top of Page

Cam

RO# 1558



Posted - Mar 12 2013 :  07:19:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Replace it and never have to worry about it again,except in regular maintenance checks.

" If you think nobody cares, try missing a few payments " (author unknown)

Homeport: Bentley Yacht Club- Staten Island, NY Go to Top of Page

Capt. Bill1

RO# 2017

Posted - Mar 12 2013 :  08:09:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Replace it.




Homeport: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale Go to Top of Page

sabrejocky

RO# 12195

Posted - Mar 12 2013 :  08:34:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Take it to a place that does marine exhaust, I mean one that works on boats that need custom exhausts. They can cut that piece out of there and glass a new piece of glass pipe back in. If you can not find a shop like that on your side of FL than give metcaf marine exhaust in FLL a call, should be an easy fix.

Cor


"Pretty Penny"
1990 50' High Tech Euro
Wellington, Florida
You ain't much if you ain't Dutch

Homeport: Miami, Florida Go to Top of Page

boatbum

RO# 36



Posted - Mar 12 2013 :  08:57:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would not do this myself. Get someone else to repair since they may use a special resin.



It's easy to be a liberal when you have tons of cash, or, you really need it.

Homeport: Go to Top of Page

boatcomfort

RO# 32076

Posted - Mar 12 2013 :  10:19:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I suggest to replace the muffler 2" IN 2" Out


Homeport: New york Go to Top of Page

HOGAN

RO# 3813



Posted - Mar 12 2013 :  11:22:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Don't risk a possible CO leak in your boat. Buy a new one and toss that one out.

_________________________


1999 Trojan 440 Express
2005 Scout 175 Sportfish
Achilles LEX 96
MMSI# 338049724




Surly to bed, surly to rise...

Homeport: SS3 @ PennyBridge Marina, Stony Point, NY Go to Top of Page

cmariner32

RO# 7269

Posted - Mar 12 2013 :  21:38:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the input everyone. I got an email back from the Centek distributor that I have used many times in the past. They want $600+ for a new muffler. I am already dropping over 2K in changing out the elbows, fittings and related parts in updating both engine exhaust systems. I have already cancelled my lower priority winter projects due to this latest issue. My concern with a repair is the fact that high temperature resin is needed in this application. I know nothing about this type of repair and will defer to having it professionally done-if indeed it can be done to a proper and safe level by a professional glasser. What kind of shop does that kind of repair. I'm not against shipping it to Fart Louder Dale if indded it can be done correctly. Surely, there must be a similar company on the west coast of Florida? Cor....thanks for the referral-at least its a start.

The only thing that works on an old boat.....is the Owner.

Homeport: Clearwater/St. Pete Florida Go to Top of Page

Sandy

RO# 1159

Posted - Mar 13 2013 :  00:54:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The difference in price between new replacement and finished repair of possibly questionable quality compared to the construction & heat resistance of the Centek may only a couple hundred $ or so. That must seem like a lot right now, but if a repair fails from any combination of stress, substantial heat and vibration, it can allow both CO and a lot of water in the boat in short time. (My blue 5.7L engines spec RW pumps flow at 5 gal in 15 sec at 4000 RPM I believe, and most of my exhaust hose and mufflers are below waterline.) If the waterlift did not look at all damaged (with internal inspection, just the hose , I'd probably reuse it, But as is in the pics , personally I believe I'd replace for peace of mind.

With apologies to your wallet, another thing you understandably may not want to hear is, the pricier blue silicone exhaust hose is supposedly much more resistant to heat and burn-thru, which may give you enough time to be aware of the flow problem and avoid a hole in your inside maybe under-water-line exhaust .
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4LENP_en___US479&q=blue+silicone+exhaust+hose


Sandy

Homeport: The Vineyard Go to Top of Page

sabrejocky

RO# 12195

Posted - Mar 13 2013 :  10:09:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In principal I agree with Sandy if the cost are close enough. But if the only damage to this thing is what is shown in the pictures and it is cheaper to have it fix by en exhaust expert that that is what I would do. I have seen haw these things are made and they not made out of in piece, in fact they are glassed together out of many pieces, so I see no reason why a competent shop that makes these things all the time could not be trusted to to repair yours.

"Pretty Penny"
1990 50' High Tech Euro
Wellington, Florida
You ain't much if you ain't Dutch

Homeport: Miami, Florida Go to Top of Page

sabrejocky

RO# 12195

Posted - Mar 13 2013 :  10:23:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just called Metcalf and asked them about this and they said that they would do a full inspection of the internals but if those are good there is no reason why they could not replace that piece.
It is all about if it got cooked.
Maybe you would like to call they and send pictures, 954-463-4650


"Pretty Penny"
1990 50' High Tech Euro
Wellington, Florida
You ain't much if you ain't Dutch

Homeport: Miami, Florida Go to Top of Page

cmariner32

RO# 7269

Posted - Mar 13 2013 :  21:43:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've inspected the muffler as much as a layperson can. The only damage I can see is on the inlet, and as you may be able to see in the pic, only the resin in the first 3-4 inches of the inlet tube melted. The engine ran maybe less than a few minutes after the hose burned through-I caught it early. I believe the crack developed only because of the stress of re-hooking up the exhause hose which is not perfectly aligned and due to the loss of integrity from the loss of resin. I had run the engine for several minutes and everything seemed to be fine except for a slight dripping where the hose connected to the inlet tube-that is what caused me to pull the exhaust hose and take a harder look at things. I called a fiberglass tank company locally and I'm going to see how much they want to fix this-making sure they have expertise in marine muffler repair. I'll let everyone know what happens.

The only thing that works on an old boat.....is the Owner.

Homeport: Clearwater/St. Pete Florida Go to Top of Page

cmariner32

RO# 7269

Posted - Mar 14 2013 :  21:51:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For anyone following this thread, I took the muffler to the fiberglass fabricator who said he has done many marine maufflers. His answers to my questions gave me a good feeling that he knows what he is doing. He will be cutting off the existing 4 inch inlet tube and fabricating a new 4 inch tube-building the interior diammeter to a thicker amount as I told him the inlet tube is under stress due to a not-so-great alignment. The fabricated tube will then be glassed into the muffler. Total cost is $200-while more than I had hoped for, a helluva lot cheaper than the $600+ for a new muffler. Thanks to all for your input-the main reason why I support this forum-so much knowledge available at rock-bottom prices.

The only thing that works on an old boat.....is the Owner.

Homeport: Clearwater/St. Pete Florida Go to Top of Page

Sandy

RO# 1159

Posted - Mar 14 2013 :  21:57:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sounds good. Did the fabricator mention what kind of resin he would use to accomodate temps?

Sandy

Homeport: The Vineyard Go to Top of Page

sabrejocky

RO# 12195

Posted - Mar 14 2013 :  23:03:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why not have him change the angle of the inlet tube to align better?

"Pretty Penny"
1990 50' High Tech Euro
Wellington, Florida
You ain't much if you ain't Dutch

Homeport: Miami, Florida Go to Top of Page

comptiger5000

RO# 30050

Posted - Mar 15 2013 :  08:12:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sandy

The difference in price between new replacement and finished repair of possibly questionable quality compared to the construction & heat resistance of the Centek may only a couple hundred $ or so. That must seem like a lot right now, but if a repair fails from any combination of stress, substantial heat and vibration, it can allow both CO and a lot of water in the boat in short time. (My blue 5.7L engines spec RW pumps flow at 5 gal in 15 sec at 4000 RPM I believe, and most of my exhaust hose and mufflers are below waterline.) If the waterlift did not look at all damaged (with internal inspection, just the hose , I'd probably reuse it, But as is in the pics , personally I believe I'd replace for peace of mind.

With apologies to your wallet, another thing you understandably may not want to hear is, the pricier blue silicone exhaust hose is supposedly much more resistant to heat and burn-thru, which may give you enough time to be aware of the flow problem and avoid a hole in your inside maybe under-water-line exhaust .
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4LENP_en___US479&q=blue+silicone+exhaust+hose



Last time we replaced an exhaust hose, we used the blue silicone stuff. It's expensive, but seems good. It's a royal PITA to install though, as it's much more flexible, so forcing it onto the risers is much, much harder if it's tight fitting, as it just bends when you try to push it on.


_________________________________________
1986 Chris Craft Catalina 381 "Hour Glass"
Twin 454 FWC Mercs, Onan MCCK 6.5kw FWC

Homeport: Stamford, CT Go to Top of Page

cmariner32

RO# 7269

Posted - Mar 15 2013 :  22:18:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sabre....that would have been a great idea if I had thought of that prior to taking the muffler up to him. Now, I would have to take the muffler back down and see exactly what angle I would need to make it align better. I was originally expecting the repair facility to just rebuild/reinforce the inlet tube-not replace it entirely in which case changing the angle would not have been an option. The fabricator indicated he would be using an epoxy resin-not the polyester resin as polyester would not bond well with the existing fiberglass. He has repaired many mufflers and talked the talk so I feel pretty confident in his abilities. I got new 4 inch wet exhaust hose from Goodyear at $20/ft which I thought was outrageous...I could never in good conscious pay the $50/ft for silicone hose. Now that I know the age of the elbows, I will be replacing them long before they get to the condition they were in where they could burn up a hose. I had figured that being in fresh water for the previous 14 yrs, I could get more than a year out of them prior to changing. However, I thought wrong-not the first time, but live and learn.

The only thing that works on an old boat.....is the Owner.

Homeport: Clearwater/St. Pete Florida Go to Top of Page

CRay

RO# 32502



Posted - Mar 16 2013 :  10:08:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When I bought my 1986 Sea Ray 390 2 years ago both Aqualift muffler had crushed inlet tubes similar to what yours looks like. I removed both mufflers and cut out the tubes with my Dremel tool. Bought new Centek fiberglass tubing and glassed them in using Vinylester resin and 2 layers of cloth. Vinlester resin is more heat tolerant than either epoxy or polyester resin. They came out better than new and have run fine for 2 seasons and about 100 hours.


Homeport: Braintree, Ma Go to Top of Page

cmariner32

RO# 7269

Posted - Mar 16 2013 :  21:50:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cray...the fabricator told me that vinylester is good for anti-blister protection, but will not bond well with poly of vinylester. Epoxy resin will provide the strongest bond. If someone here knows otherwise, I'd like to hear what they have to say. I'm looking at long-term as I figger this is the last boat I plan on buying.

The only thing that works on an old boat.....is the Owner.

Homeport: Clearwater/St. Pete Florida Go to Top of Page

caltexfla

RO# 14522



Posted - Mar 17 2013 :  11:06:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am going through this same thing on a larger scale (10 inch diameter) and both engines. Some years ago someone did an improper installation / fix which resulted in very slowly crushing both glass flanges via over tightened T- Clamps and a bad glass job. Very gradual water leaks resulted recently which we finally tracked down. Longer story than that, but no matter. The mufflers were still in very good shape. We have cut the flanges off all together and got properly fabricated new tubes which will be glassed into place. Inside each tube at the hose end, we are inserting and resining in stainless steel "crush tubes" which we actually bought from Hatteras( the boat is near their plant), who uses these now in new construction and was nice enough to sell them to us direct (the guy supervising this job worked there for many years). Overall my install will be the current state of the art. This is just too critical a system to go half-baked.

You absolutely must use the proper resin. This stuff is hard to come by. Hatteras wanted $600 for a five gallon pail of what they use, eventually we found another local boat builder who got it for us cheaper. We only need a couple of gallons, but it only comes in 5 gallons. So we will try and sell it off to one of the locals. Nice to be in a boat-building area. It is a very hazardous cargo to ship, which was another problem. Anyway, you want someone to do this job who has a lot of references or specializes in exhaust work. My boat is testimony to what happens when you don't, but fortunately we caught it in time. You can burn up your boat or sink it. Or just have to do this again in the future.

If I can get around to it I will upload some pix. I am going to be doing a little thread on the project on the Hatteras Owner's Forum.



Homeport: Wherever Go to Top of Page

caltexfla

RO# 14522



Posted - Mar 17 2013 :  11:52:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here are a few pix of the cut out tubes and the new tubes with crush ring (for illustration, not installed yet).









My foot in the picture below gives you a sizing reference:




Edited by - caltexfla on Mar 17 2013 11:52:58

Homeport: Wherever Go to Top of Page

cmariner32

RO# 7269

Posted - Mar 17 2013 :  21:44:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the additional info caltex. One of the comments that sealed the deal with this fabricator is that he has done several Hat mufflers. I had talked with Centak regarding an anti-crush fiberglass tube when I was considering a DIY project-they strongly recommended that the anti-crush tube was not the solution in my case. With a SS insert, is there not a concern for anorobic corrosion-specifically the glass side of the SS ring? Just curious.

The only thing that works on an old boat.....is the Owner.

Homeport: Clearwater/St. Pete Florida Go to Top of Page

caltexfla

RO# 14522



Posted - Mar 18 2013 :  09:02:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not if you resin it in right' you don't just slide them in. Or should I say, have someone who knows what they are doing resin it in right. Both guys on this job worked at Hatteras many years and have great reputations. I got the glass tubes from there too. We'll see!


Homeport: Wherever Go to Top of Page
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