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CurrentSea

RO# 10265



Posted - Nov 17 2017 :  16:12:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This will be an interesting story. Love to hear the comments.

On July 30th of this year I was operating my boat in what is known as the North Channel on the south shore of long island. It is a wide channel that runs from the mainland out to what is known as the flats which are not dredged and can run from zero to 6' depending on the area.

I was following a buddy. I saw a police boat cutting across the flats at a high rate of speed with his lights on, he was on my starboard. At first I thought he was pulling over my buddy, but then he turned and headed in my direction. It looked like he would easily clear my path since I was doing about 25 and he was doing like 50. Either way I slowed down, which I do slowly as I don't like water to run back over platform and came to a stop. By this time the police boat has continued to head in my direction and circled me and stopped.

The officer yelled, “what are you doing captain”. I said “I stopped”. He said, “no you are supposed to make an evasive maneuver to show me that you see me and acknowledge that you see me”.
He took my license and registration and left. The reason was because they were transporting a injured person to an awaiting ambulance on the mainland.

Now, I fully know about turning behind another boat and giving right away. I didn’t turn for a couple of reasons. One, it would of taken me out of the channel, thereby putting my vessel in danger of running aground hard. Two, I sort of turn towards him at first but turned back when I saw that when I turned towards him, he turned towards me, so that put us on a true collision course and he was moving very fast. So my decision was to slow down and stop and turn after I stopped.

The officer who was yelling was not driving. The driver of the boat seemed a little novice as he had a hard time pulling next to me with a twin engine outboard boat. So I think the officer thought we were on a collision course but in reality it was because his driver turned towards me, when according the navigation law, if the give-way vessel can’t turn to avoid the stand-on vessel then the stand-on vessel should turn to avoid putting the 2 boats on a collision course.

So eventually they came back and gave me the ticket and book of nav rules.

I then went to court as the summons was for reckless operation which requires court.
First day in court, the DA says bring your abstract, which is a copy of your driver’s license convictions.
I did and had my second day in court today.

On my second day, DA says he doesn’t know Navigation law and asked to have a chance to review.
A hour later I go in front of judge again and he says normally this would result in a suspension of my right to operate a boat but they will let me take a boating safety course (which I took before) but they want one dated after the incident. Now mind you, I have not been proven guilty, I have not faced my accuser. I have not had a chance to even tell my side of the story. I did ask if I could and the judge said no, because I may further incriminate myself and asked if I can take the course and come back

So now I have to take the course and return to court with proof I took the course! Also the cop never showed either time. Talk about a waste of tax dollars!

2009 Regal 4080
Volvo Diesel IPS

Homeport: Anchorage YC - Lindenhurst, NY

boatbum

RO# 36

Posted - Nov 17 2017 :  16:41:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sounds like you have been screwed by a bad cop and a rigged court. Good luck. Too bad you did not have a helm cam running. More and more I think we should all have dash cams and aft facing cams in boats, cars and bicycles for crying out loud.
That's what you get for staying in NYS.

Bring charts, a print of your track from the gps along with the speed at the time.



Edited by - boatbum on Nov 17 2017 16:42:49

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CurrentSea

RO# 10265



Posted - Nov 17 2017 :  17:01:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't blame the court. The judge has been really nice. I think she is a boater too because when they brought up the course, she mentioned going to power squadron and I am not sure the average person knows that. We also shared some laughs when I said I wanted to tell the story, she said she really wanted to hear it, so did the bayliff and the court officers but the judge didn't think it was in my interest to tell.

It's the cop, who had a hair up his a** and the DA, who has no idea how to handle a navigation ruling that I am annoyed with. I think the judge can't do much since the DA won't make a offer or dismiss. It was his idea for the abstract and then the course.

No biggie, they offer the course online!



2009 Regal 4080
Volvo Diesel IPS

Homeport: Anchorage YC - Lindenhurst, NY Go to Top of Page

boatbum

RO# 36

Posted - Nov 17 2017 :  18:13:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If your gps shows you slowing down during the approach that should be an indication that you recognized their presence.


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November Charlie

RO# 824

Posted - Nov 17 2017 :  22:28:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do you know the cite for the violation? Sounds like a Contempt of Cop violation. Those need to be fought, turned around and stuffed up the DA’s ass sideways, then the DA stuffed up the officer’s supervisor’s ass. I hate that crap. If you believe the elements of the V or offense are met, write it. If you’re pissed someone didn’t kneel and kiss the ring, skip the narrative for the violation and spend your energy writing your resignation letter.

My signature line is cooler than your signature line.

Homeport: Northwest Go to Top of Page

RWS

RO# 25075



Posted - Nov 18 2017 :  05:44:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rather than going up against the DA all by yourself, I think a situation like this might have a better ending if you had representation.

RWS


1983 Trojan International 10 Meter
Twin Yanmar 315 Turbodiesels
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Woodless Stringers
Full Hull Liner
Trojan International Website: http://trojanboat.com/

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CurrentSea

RO# 10265



Posted - Nov 18 2017 :  08:08:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Look, I am not one to fight city hall. I am not going to get a over-paid attorney and further play into their hand.
I enjoy sitting in the courtroom and watching the shenanigans that go on between the DA, attorneys a bail bond guy.
These guys all are taking advantage of the slime of the earth. My first day in court, they assigned me a legal aid, which I didn't ask for.
She kept telling me i need to higher an attorney and gave me her card. She also wouldn't let me speak.

The second time the judge asked if I would represent myself and I said yes.

It does appear that people who have attorney's get a fairer shake. Why? Well the DA and the attorney's are all friends, they go over, they make side deals, then they go in front of judge and confirm them. It's a interesting process.

I am sure if I had an attorney this would of been dismissed first day with slap on the wrist. Instead they are dragging me thru the ringer.
I am okay with a safety course but it better end there. They ask for more and I will be annoyed.

I agree, this cop had his priorities wrong and he had the navigation rules wrong too.


2009 Regal 4080
Volvo Diesel IPS

Homeport: Anchorage YC - Lindenhurst, NY Go to Top of Page

CurrentSea

RO# 10265



Posted - Nov 18 2017 :  08:54:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
BTW - I was about to take the online course for $29.95 but found BoatUS offers it for free!! Pay $10 for a permanent card if you want.

I have taken the power squadron course before.
In NYS you have to take this course to operate a jetski.

http://www.boatus.org/newyork/

I am just glad that this won't show up anywhere and affect my Captain's license which I plan to do next year!



2009 Regal 4080
Volvo Diesel IPS

Homeport: Anchorage YC - Lindenhurst, NY Go to Top of Page

Chesagansett

RO# 9880



Posted - Nov 18 2017 :  10:04:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm still amazed about the part that he took time to give you a ticket instead of finishing the task of transporting the injured person! What ever happened to the injured person the cop was transporting? Oh, and I would move away from NY as soon as possible!




Glenn
Cape Coral, FL
Four Winns Sundowner 245

Edited by - Chesagansett on Nov 18 2017 22:38:04

Homeport: Cape Coral, FL Go to Top of Page

L. Keith

RO# 1615

Posted - Nov 18 2017 :  10:09:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Did either party use their VHF radio to make crossing arrangements? Make the radio call.


Homeport: N. Gulf of Mexico Go to Top of Page

CurrentSea

RO# 10265



Posted - Nov 18 2017 :  10:38:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chesagansett

I'm still amazed about the part that he took time to giove you a ticket instead of finishing the task of transporting the injured person! What ever happened to the in jured person the cop was transporting? Oh, nd I would move away from NY as soon as possible!






I think I said, he took my license and reggie and left. So he stopped to get that, yell at me and left. I floated for about 20 min waiting for him to come back. Yes, that was extremely annoying and dangerous in my view since if I had an emergency or had to leave I basically would of been in further trouble. Plus the fact he was making 2 other boats float and wait for me since we were 3 boats traveling together.

As for the radio, no, I didn't get any radio or horn signal. And his siren was not on. Just blue flashing lights.



2009 Regal 4080
Volvo Diesel IPS

Homeport: Anchorage YC - Lindenhurst, NY Go to Top of Page

November Charlie

RO# 824

Posted - Nov 18 2017 :  13:36:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CurrentSea

quote:
Originally posted by Chesagansett

I'm still amazed about the part that he took time to giove you a ticket instead of finishing the task of transporting the injured person! What ever happened to the in jured person the cop was transporting? Oh, nd I would move away from NY as soon as possible!






I think I said, he took my license and reggie and left. So he stopped to get that, yell at me and left. I floated for about 20 min waiting for him to come back. Yes, that was extremely annoying and dangerous in my view since if I had an emergency or had to leave I basically would of been in further trouble. Plus the fact he was making 2 other boats float and wait for me since we were 3 boats traveling together.

As for the radio, no, I didn't get any radio or horn signal. And his siren was not on. Just blue flashing lights.





I missed that on first read - that's an odd way to detain someone and seize their property.


My signature line is cooler than your signature line.

Homeport: Northwest Go to Top of Page

MichaelNJ

RO# 14778

Posted - Nov 18 2017 :  16:25:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What jurisdiction is this? Which Law Enforcement agency and which court. Best thing to do when approached by law enforcement is to come off plane. That shows that you see and are yielding to them and are ready to comply.


Homeport: Jersey City, NJ Go to Top of Page

Sandy

RO# 1159

Posted - Nov 18 2017 :  16:27:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It seems the Water Police (or policeman in a boat) could arbitrarily screw you no matter what as you had no way of knowing what his actual intentions were. If, instead of stopping , you had paid strict attention to the basic nav rules and made an obvious give-way maneuver to clearly acknowledge and not obstruct his stand-on status , but you had also not stopped, he could site you for not stopping if his original intent with the fast blue-light approach was indeed to stop and inspect or board you. How would you know for sure? Did you have your VHF on 16 with sufficient volume so HE could try to hail YOU if desired, ...and did he?

Personally, I believe I would have made the obvious turn to clear his indicated stand-on path and slowed way down or stopped when plenty clear to confirm his actual intentions. That may be pretty close to what you did. Realistically, at times like that attempts to establish quick radio comms by a single operator can be quite unwieldly or even distractingly detrimental when "giving-way."

There was no collision and if it turned out to not even have been close, it surely does appear there is no reason at all this should ever be wasting the court's & your time and taxpayers & your money other than due to the ego of 1 LEO and cooperation of the DA which allowed this incident, as reported, to be so overblown. A warning could so easily have sufficed.
Hard to imagine he had proper right to confiscate your license and registration and leave the scene when there was no accident. I'd love to hear a legal opinion on that.

It's understandable, but in hindsight it is a shame you decided not to be represented by a lawyer. Justice is not blind and has lots of unseen connections.

But then , ....none of the rest of us were there during the incident



Sandy

Homeport: The Vineyard Go to Top of Page

walterv

RO# 12640



Posted - Nov 18 2017 :  17:23:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was one of the two boats Dave mentioned he was traveling with, all I can say is this cop had no right to detain Dave or issue a ticket. The cop had plenty of room to maneuver (small boat) and Dave was locked down to the constraint of the channel. As he mentioned, he did slow down and at no point was there a danger to the cop to cross his path. The Cop (small boat at high speed) had tons of options but was just a prick and headed towards Dave. Visibility that day was the best conditions available. He saw our flotilla, miles away and as a responsible captain should have acted accordingly IMHO. I just don't get this entire ordeal!


And always remember, life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by those moments that take our breath away.

George Carlin

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Joeshoes

RO# 1967

Posted - Nov 18 2017 :  18:03:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cops on the road, Cops on the water it is the same.

lnitially I would have screamed that I would take it to the supreme court but after calming down would realize that the boating course was the easy way out and taken it.

Sad, bet he sat at the bar that night and told his pals about the heroic deeds that he performed that day.

This is just another case of "abuse of power."


To learn who rules you, simply find out whom you are not allowed to criticize. Voltaire

Homeport: Manhasset, NY Go to Top of Page

Sandy

RO# 1159

Posted - Nov 18 2017 :  18:16:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Walter- Sounds like it could have helped a lot if you had been able to attend the court proceedings as support defense witness .

Even so, I don't understand how even the requirement for (repeat) boater safety class could have been mandated for anyone but the water cop since he did not even appear to provide the slightest support for the proceedings. Why were they not dismissed altogether without the charging officer??? Sounds highly improper to a layman.

That water cop certainly could not proclaim any of you obstructed a dire semi-life & death emergency transport if he went out if his way to circle around, stop, yell, & detain one of you to questionably demand and confiscate personal ID before resuming speed & course.

I would suspect it could still be in your best interest to have a locally-respected lawyer with you when you return to court as it sounds like you have no guarantee there will not be any more questionable not-in-your favor rulings.

Just curious though, do you think your auto driving record you mentioned they required could have been at all influential in not having this dismissed outright?


Sandy

Homeport: The Vineyard Go to Top of Page

Sandy

RO# 1159

Posted - Nov 18 2017 :  18:25:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It could be interesting to hear Les's knowledgeable legal perspective of Dave's side of this report, especially since Walter was there too.

Sandy

Homeport: The Vineyard Go to Top of Page

Gregory S

RO# 2620



Posted - Nov 18 2017 :  18:58:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What license did he take? Didn't know you needed a license in New York to operate a boat.


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boatbum

RO# 36

Posted - Nov 18 2017 :  19:02:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can hear it now. "the cops don't have to know the law they enforce".


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walterv

RO# 12640



Posted - Nov 18 2017 :  19:52:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sandy,
It is a kangaroo court, I will let Dave explain. Greg, they took his drivers license (car)


And always remember, life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by those moments that take our breath away.

George Carlin

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walterv

RO# 12640



Posted - Nov 18 2017 :  19:55:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sandy,
Dave lost two days wages so far, and a third to happen next, unless he could capture attorney fees I think it would be silly to get an attorney. As mentioned, let Dave explain.


And always remember, life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by those moments that take our breath away.

George Carlin

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L. Keith

RO# 1615

Posted - Nov 19 2017 :  09:02:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would recommend that all of you read and comprehend the book "Farwell's Rules of the Nautical Road" by Craig H. Allen.


Homeport: N. Gulf of Mexico Go to Top of Page

Bliss

RO# 2743

Posted - Nov 19 2017 :  09:30:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just ordered a copy. Thank you!


Homeport: Reef Point Racine, WI Go to Top of Page

CurrentSea

RO# 10265



Posted - Nov 19 2017 :  09:43:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So he took my driver's license and boat registration. Boat is documented but I still have a reggie.

The document they asked for on the first time in court was my driver's license abstract which is my CAR driving record and was clean as a whistle. No reckless car driving which is what I think they were looking for.

Will this end next time? Yes, because if it doesn't I will go after the DA and tell him I complied with 2 of his demands and accuse him of wasting taxpayer's dollars and that will be on the record. I will then ask the judge to rule, something they hate to do, but since the judge seems to be in my favor, I think it will be a good path!

As for lost wages, no, I have lost a total of about 6 hours from work, no big deal, I am salaried and bill enough overtime hours that its no big deal. Though for someone else that may be different.

To me this experience shows me our court systems is messed up. If noone understands navigation law, then why do we have police officers on the water? There should be a maritime court held say 4 times a year to review cases like this. Moving them to regular court system where the DA who represents the people admits in court he does not know navigational law is a joke!



2009 Regal 4080
Volvo Diesel IPS

Homeport: Anchorage YC - Lindenhurst, NY Go to Top of Page

November Charlie

RO# 824

Posted - Nov 19 2017 :  11:50:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Joeshoes

Cops on the road, Cops on the water it is the same.

lnitially I would have screamed that I would take it to the supreme court but after calming down would realize that the boating course was the easy way out and taken it.

Sad, bet he sat at the bar that night and told his pals about the heroic deeds that he performed that day.

This is just another case of "abuse of power."




I doubt he was bragging about his incompetence, bullying, unlawful detention, theft of personal property under color of law, and compelling the operator of a vessel to operate it in an unlawful manner while he was being so detained.


My signature line is cooler than your signature line.

Homeport: Northwest Go to Top of Page

Gregory S

RO# 2620



Posted - Nov 19 2017 :  12:11:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So, you need to carry your driver's license while boating i New York? Something wrong here. Don't understand what a driver's license has to do with operating a boat. I'm thinking nothing. I don't know of any law that requires you to carry it while boating. Do you carry your license when you're on a jet ski? I never did.


Homeport: Norfolk, Va Go to Top of Page

ALKA2710

RO# 25407

Posted - Nov 19 2017 :  14:27:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can't think of a law or even a round about law of having to carry ID to prove who you are unless driving a car. The one caveat to that is if you do break a minor law, say drinking in public and you have no ID on you, they can take you away in handcuffs until ID can be presented or verified.


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November Charlie

RO# 824

Posted - Nov 19 2017 :  19:13:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gregory S

So, you need to carry your driver's license while boating i New York? Something wrong here. Don't understand what a driver's license has to do with operating a boat. I'm thinking nothing. I don't know of any law that requires you to carry it while boating. Do you carry your license when you're on a jet ski? I never did.



I’m not aware of any law that requires it. That said - when I am on the other side of the situation, I always ask for drivers license or photo ID. Saves a lot of time and aggravation to just copy name and address from it than to copy it down from verbal, spell it wrong, ask them to repeat it again more slowly, ask if that’s an M or an N, et cetera. I want that boarding completed as efficiently as possible, too. An inspection should NEVER be extended any longer than is reasonably necessary to complete the legitimate inspection. As a training issue, I extend that to include any longer than is ACTUALLY necessary. The majority of recreational boat boardings should be complete before the other officer can even finish filling out the form.


My signature line is cooler than your signature line.

Homeport: Northwest Go to Top of Page

GeeBee

RO# 385



Posted - Nov 19 2017 :  19:29:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In the state of Georgia you must have a valid photo ID to operate a vessel. Federal law says you also must have one to pilot an airplane in addition to your FAA pilot's license.



"The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."... Margaret Thatcher

Edited by - GeeBee on Nov 19 2017 19:50:46

Homeport: Lake Lanier, GA Go to Top of Page

j-d

RO# 15782

Posted - Nov 19 2017 :  23:26:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Using Florida as an example, we're required to have a Boater Card if born after 1988. So a 50-YOA doesn't have to have a card. But some 50's look like 28's. Only way LEO can tell if operation is legal is to require an official photo ID card with DOB. Like a DL. And, Boater Cards don't bear photos. We're required to furnish DOB with Boater Card, so LEO can match DOB on DL with DOB on Boater Card to confirm that somebody has not borrowed somebody else's Boater Card.

I've been biting my tongue (well, actually my typing fingers...) since this thread opened. No more. In the absence of more information, LEO was being a jerk and should have left Dave and his flotilla alone. Then the gov't agencies circled their wagons instead of admitting wrong by backing down.

Now about the On Line Boating Class. When Required, and Taken, to simply get some "ticket punched", on line courses are a CROCK. Let me give you an example. If I'm a medical or food service person, and my work is subject to inspection which will be reflected in my personnel evaluations... THEN I will be very diligent in my study of the on line Mandatory Influenza Prevention Course. My Certificate of Completion will mean something. But... That's not the case. I'm a work-from-home customer support tech. Company wants 100% participation in Influenza Training, probably on some executive's bonus plan. I'll do the course, all right. How fast? With what GOAL? What will I remember? Will I apply one bit of it? Now enter the teenagers wanting to drive their family jetskis... Boater Card Party! Sit around the laptop, figure out the answers, log on as each other, page through to the test, pay their $10, Done. Giant Step for Boating Safety.
We NEED worthwhile Boating Education. The BE crowd has boating figured out. The novices have not. In the USA, only Puerto Rico has it right: Twenty Hours Classroom. Perfect? No. But we expect the driver of that oncoming bus to know what a Stop sign means. Same on the water.
I doubt a "Dave" will learn anything new from the Boat/US, but in his position that's exactly what I'd do. However I can say is this: A good classroom program can actually teach. In a one day class for a prestige yachting community, we started hearing "I didn't know that." "I'll have to look into that." "I need to fix that." Same with the licensed tugboat captains at a major marine construction company. Price isn't the issue. It's giving up one whole day.




God Bless, jd
1996 Sea Ray 215EC
357CID/4V/275HP RWC 1G408541 Alpha1G2 1.62 14-1/2*23*3 Aluminum


Homeport: Sunny Florida Go to Top of Page

CurrentSea

RO# 10265



Posted - Nov 20 2017 :  08:01:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well I passed my course and get my boating certificate.
I did manage to get 2 wrong.
I don't recall the 2 I got wrong but they were pretty dumb questions with redundant possible answers.

I just hope this is the end of this situation and I won't know until I return to court 1/26. I will update this then.

Again, in my view I have learned 1 thing. When a LEO has his lights on and is on a perpendicular path to me, I am stopping and turning to make sure he isn't confused by my intentions!





2009 Regal 4080
Volvo Diesel IPS

Homeport: Anchorage YC - Lindenhurst, NY Go to Top of Page

Padraig

RO# 4792

Posted - Nov 20 2017 :  08:36:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If the officer who charged you is not there.....ask the judge to dismiss charges.

Padraig


Padraig

Homeport: Western NY Go to Top of Page

JVM225

RO# 28365

Posted - Nov 20 2017 :  08:36:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Tough way to learn a lesson.
From your point of view the summoning Officer could have handled it differently. Perhaps so, NYS allows LEO’s discretion with regards to violations. It’s their call in the end though.
From my perspective and your description of events I can sort of see both sides of it.
You’re an experienced boater who didn’t know the procedure. On the other hand, had you known it, you still would have had a tough time making the turn in the narrow channel surrounded by shallow water.
While I have no experience with emergency response on the water, I have a ton of it on land and can say that it is extremely frustrating and dangerous when you have the lights and siren going and someone doesn’t yield properly.
He was within his rights to “hold on to” your license until he returned from transporting the injured person.
While you aren’t required to carry the driver license while operating a boat, you are required to present proper ID when being issued a summons. Generally the license is used as proper ID. If you don’t have proper ID the LEO has the option to take you in to custody for the violation because summonses are issued in lieu of arrest. That prevents someone without ID from giving their brother’s pedigree info.
The most troubling part of your story for me is the inexperience of the DA prosecuting violations issued on the water in a jurisdiction surrounded by it where thousands of boats are operated on summer weekends.
I think that kind of indicates a lack of emphasis on proper enforcement.




2002 Sea Ray 410 Sundancer
95 Eastern 22'
05 Maxum 18' Bowrider
C6 Corvette Convertible
68 GTO


Edited by - JVM225 on Nov 20 2017 08:55:50

Homeport: Farmingdale NY Go to Top of Page

JVM225

RO# 28365

Posted - Nov 20 2017 :  08:51:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Padraig

If the officer who charged you is not there.....ask the judge to dismiss charges.

Padraig



Generally, LEO’s in NYS fill out and sign the back of the first page of the multi part summons and it serves as an affidavit. If there is reason for the officer to provide further testimony, most jurisdictions give them a chance to respond to a notification to appear.
Honestly, the best advice to give anyone in this situation is to hire a lawyer and let that lawyer do all the talking in court.
People minimize traffic court and similar appearances.
But no matter how minor a matter may appear to be, the old adage that “someone who represents himself has a fool for a Lawyer” holds true more often than not.
I understand that there are jurisdictions in NYS where they will allow a motor vehicle operator to “plea bargain” in violation cases. I’m told that it is common place in the suburban County I currently live in.
I can say that although it was a very long time ago, I made my fair share of appearances in traffic courts in NYC where, unlike criminal court, they do not plea bargain violations and I never saw a motorist win without a Lawyer.


2002 Sea Ray 410 Sundancer
95 Eastern 22'
05 Maxum 18' Bowrider
C6 Corvette Convertible
68 GTO


Homeport: Farmingdale NY Go to Top of Page

Reel Antsy

RO# 9587



Posted - Nov 20 2017 :  10:02:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Padraig

If the officer who charged you is not there.....ask the judge to dismiss charges.

Padraig


Absolutely. The cop is the state's witness and if he's not there, I would have moved for dismissal...



Jamie
1985 Trojan F32





Homeport: Rockville, MD / Colonial Beach, VA Go to Top of Page

CurrentSea

RO# 10265



Posted - Nov 20 2017 :  12:04:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I want to clarify that I asked for it to be dismissed but that was ignored.
I am sure if I had an attorney it would of been.
No issue.
I will return with my certificate of boating safety and be proud and hope they dismiss!


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JVM225

RO# 28365

Posted - Nov 20 2017 :  15:20:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CurrentSea

I want to clarify that I asked for it to be dismissed but that was ignored.
I am sure if I had an attorney it would of been.
No issue.
I will return with my certificate of boating safety and be proud and hope they dismiss!




The court doesn’t necessarily have to dismiss it because the Officer wasn’t there because he outlined the details on, and signed the back of the top copy (original) of the summons. You don’t see that copy because it’s forwarded to the court. That’s how the court knows what the Officer said you did. If necessary, the court will put in a notification for the Officer to appear.
Different jurisdictions give the Officer X amount of “no shows” before they will dismiss. The nature of Police work is such that sometimes more pressing matters arise that will cause an Officer to miss a court date.
Not sure that it would have been dismissed if you had a Lawyer with you and his argument for dismissal was simply that the Officer wasn’t in court. It may have been if the Judge felt sorry for you and didn’t want to see you pay a Lawyer for multiple appearances, but there is no guarantees.
Honestly though, I would have still hired a Lawyer that specializes in traffic type stuff (unlikely you’ll find one that specializes in boat operation violations). They know the system a lot better than you do and will usually get you a better outcome than you can get on your own. That’s why I generally recommend that folks in similar positions as you spend the money on a Lawyer rather than risk saying something stupid in court due to your inexperience. The money you’ll pay may well be more than made up in a lesser fine and avoiding increased insurance premiums over time.
What you probably don’t want though is a Lawyer that specializes in other matters because he likely doesn’t know that system any better than you do. Many of my clients after I retired from the PD were Lawyers and what I quickly learned when dealing with them is that, like many Doctors these days, they are generally only expert in the specific specialty they practice. You don’t want your divorce Lawyer representing you in a personal injury suit or vice vers, no more than you want an orthopedic surgeon doing a heart bypass on you.
What you definitely don’t want to do is to take legal advice from people who aren’t Lawyers despite how many they are related to or know, the number of times they’ve been through the legal system, or the amount of time they’ve spent watching Lawyer or Cop shows on TV.
Those of us in the Law Enforcement Community and the scores of Lawyers I’ve dealt with over the years that are/were involved in the Justice System overwhelmingly refer to those “legal experts” as either “Jailhouse Lawyers” or more often as “$hithouse Lawyers”.


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05 Maxum 18' Bowrider
C6 Corvette Convertible
68 GTO


Edited by - JVM225 on Nov 20 2017 15:31:45

Homeport: Farmingdale NY Go to Top of Page

GeeBee

RO# 385



Posted - Nov 20 2017 :  16:28:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah, the officer does not have to be there. This Sixth Amendment is highly over rated IMHO.



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November Charlie

RO# 824

Posted - Nov 20 2017 :  18:09:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JVM225



While I have no experience with emergency response on the water, I have a ton of it on land and can say that it is extremely frustrating and dangerous when you have the lights and siren going and someone doesn’t yield properly.






I'm the opposite - I have little experience with the land side, but a ton of experience with maritime L/E. Both individually and as an Instructor. I can tell you that the 1972 International Regulations for the Prevention of Collision at Sea, and the Inland Navigation Rules which largely incorporate them by reference, make absolutely no special provision for a law enforcement vessel aside from stating that a flashing blue light identifies a law enforcement vessel. There is NOTHING within that indicates a vessel must take any particular action when sighting such lights at any range, but there is plenty indicating the proper conduct of vessels in all other situations. It really is a whole different world than 'street' L/E - the very nature of operating a boat is a world apart from operating a M/V.

First indication I had the officer in this anecdote is VERY boot and clueless - he was using his blues for a SAR case. I VERY seldom use them (and train the same) because you know what the 99% reaction is when a boater sees them? They come to all stop right in the middle of the damned channel. They completely lose their situational awareness, ignore all other traffic, don't think about the impact or interruption to traffic, their obligations undertake rules, regulations, and customs of mariners. They foul up the world around them in whatever waterway it is, and almost ALWAYS cause the opposite effect. You want people out of your way? Blip the siren, stick an arm out the pilothouse window and wave them away, call them on the VHF, but unless you need to build your narrative for someone refusing to heave to, don't EVER use blue lights if you want someone OUT of your way. Dollar to a dime this guy has ZERO training in MLE and got himself assigned to a boat assuming 'street' L/E and MLE must be same same.

The next is seizing property, detaining the operator, and inducing him to operate in violation of federal regulations for what boils down to perceived contempt of cop. (It does. We can probably all agree on that) And doing so while delaying transport of a patient that was deemed urgent enough to cause this interaction in the first place. Which is it? PT was so urgent you had no time to spare to obey the law while charged with enforcing it, or patient was so unimportant you had time to go off the reservation and do all of the above - in which case, how on EARTH is the violation justified?


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Chesagansett

RO# 9880



Posted - Nov 20 2017 :  19:58:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

<<..."And doing so while delaying transport of a patient that was deemed urgent enough to cause this interaction in the first place. Which is it? PT was so urgent you had no time to spare to obey the law while charged with enforcing it, or patient was so unimportant you had time to go off the reservation and do all of the above - in which case, how on EARTH is the violation justified?"....>>


Bingo. That's the summary of it. That cop is a power hungry jackass. The patient either needed immediate attention, or he didn't. Either way, the cop acted like an ass.







Glenn
Cape Coral, FL
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CurrentSea

RO# 10265



Posted - Nov 20 2017 :  21:03:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To be honest. The injured patient on the boat was written on the ticket as his reason for traveling so fast that he wrote on the ticket.
But both myself and the Admiral saw noone else on the boat but him and his driver. It was one of those inflatable with an aluminum cabin. You see the coast guard using them. We could see inside.

So its possible there was no patient. Maybe they were racing to get lunch. Maybe they were just f'ing around. I don't know.
I do know, my ticket said he was racing to bring a injured passenger to an awaiting ambulance on the mainland.



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WALSHIE

RO# 2124



Posted - Nov 21 2017 :  09:35:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is all BS and if I were you, I'd be very, very upset!

Maybe he was on the way to get the patient and drop off elsewhere?


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CurrentSea

RO# 10265



Posted - Nov 21 2017 :  09:59:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was upset when it first happened.
Now its comical. I don't sweat the petty things!

The ticket states they had a injured passenger who was heading to an awaiting ambulance.
No disputing that.
For all I know the cop who is pissed off was the injured patient.
I assume they needed a reason to be racing across the bay with lights on, so they had to write something.




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HOGAN

RO# 3813



Posted - Nov 21 2017 :  10:34:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GeeBee

Yeah, the officer does not have to be there. This Sixth Amendment is highly over rated IMHO.





Not true at all. If the cop doesn't show, demand that the ticket be dismissed. They cannot prosecute the case based on a the ticket, the cop MUST testify and be subject to cross examination.


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JVM225

RO# 28365

Posted - Nov 21 2017 :  10:53:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GeeBee

Yeah, the officer does not have to be there. This Sixth Amendment is highly over rated IMHO.




Doesn’t apply here yet.
This is why I recommend that people in these situations get a Lawyer rather than taking legal advice from people who think they understand every aspect of the law and court procedure because they read the constitution.
The proceedings he has appeared for are hearings not a trial. The overwhelming majority of violation offenses in this State are resolved at hearings. He has the right to counsel at these hearings, and I strongly suggest that people in these situations avail themselves of that counsel, but most don’t. Relying instead on what they think they know about the law, or advice that laymen have given them. That’s why the overwhelming majority of them are found guilty.
Should he demand a trial by jury he can have it in accordance with the 6th amendment and he’ll absolutely have the right to be represented by counsel, face his accuser, present witnesses, etc..
That might be kind of crazy though.
Should he demand a trial for this incident to make a point it would be a real roll of the dice and will likely not go well for him if he loses.
Again, I’m not a Lawyer, but I have testified in my fair share of criminal and traffic cases over a 25 year career in Law Enforcement, and continued involvement during the next 12 years as a Private Investigator and my overall assessment of Judges is that they are not necessarily sympathetic to people who they feel may be wasting the courts time and resources.
Had he hired a Lawyer who takes care of traffic and other violations from the beginning I suspect that this matter would have been resolved and put behind him after his first appearance and would have been cheaper in the long run.




2002 Sea Ray 410 Sundancer
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JVM225

RO# 28365

Posted - Nov 21 2017 :  11:10:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by November Charlie

quote:
Originally posted by JVM225



While I have no experience with emergency response on the water, I have a ton of it on land and can say that it is extremely frustrating and dangerous when you have the lights and siren going and someone doesn’t yield properly.






I'm the opposite - I have little experience with the land side, but a ton of experience with maritime L/E. Both individually and as an Instructor. I can tell you that the 1972 International Regulations for the Prevention of Collision at Sea, and the Inland Navigation Rules which largely incorporate them by reference, make absolutely no special provision for a law enforcement vessel aside from stating that a flashing blue light identifies a law enforcement vessel. There is NOTHING within that indicates a vessel must take any particular action when sighting such lights at any range, but there is plenty indicating the proper conduct of vessels in all other situations. It really is a whole different world than 'street' L/E - the very nature of operating a boat is a world apart from operating a M/V.

First indication I had the officer in this anecdote is VERY boot and clueless - he was using his blues for a SAR case. I VERY seldom use them (and train the same) because you know what the 99% reaction is when a boater sees them? They come to all stop right in the middle of the damned channel. They completely lose their situational awareness, ignore all other traffic, don't think about the impact or interruption to traffic, their obligations undertake rules, regulations, and customs of mariners. They foul up the world around them in whatever waterway it is, and almost ALWAYS cause the opposite effect. You want people out of your way? Blip the siren, stick an arm out the pilothouse window and wave them away, call them on the VHF, but unless you need to build your narrative for someone refusing to heave to, don't EVER use blue lights if you want someone OUT of your way. Dollar to a dime this guy has ZERO training in MLE and got himself assigned to a boat assuming 'street' L/E and MLE must be same same.

The next is seizing property, detaining the operator, and inducing him to operate in violation of federal regulations for what boils down to perceived contempt of cop. (It does. We can probably all agree on that) And doing so while delaying transport of a patient that was deemed urgent enough to cause this interaction in the first place. Which is it? PT was so urgent you had no time to spare to obey the law while charged with enforcing it, or patient was so unimportant you had time to go off the reservation and do all of the above - in which case, how on EARTH is the violation justified?



You’re questioning the Officer’s tactics and procedure based on a fact pattern as relayed to you by one side and I think that based on your experience you are correct to do so.
I think Dave also has the right to do so, and there are likely avenues for him to pursue that through the Officer’s Department if he chooses.
My extensive experience in investigating not only criminal cases, but a wide spectrum of matters involving Police Officers actions, conduct, and compliance with procedures at a supervisory, and later command, level has taught me to never come to a conclusion without hearing both sides and examining the evidence so I’ll reserve judgement and not second guess the Officer or Dave.
That doesn’t change whether on land, in the air, or out on the water.


2002 Sea Ray 410 Sundancer
95 Eastern 22'
05 Maxum 18' Bowrider
C6 Corvette Convertible
68 GTO


Edited by - JVM225 on Nov 21 2017 11:12:39

Homeport: Farmingdale NY Go to Top of Page

HOGAN

RO# 3813



Posted - Nov 21 2017 :  11:20:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As a lawyer for over 30 years, and a former prosecutor, you cannot be convicted by the court or a jury without the testimony of the accuser.

Yes, you can plea bargain, and plead guilty without the cop appearing, but if you demand a trial and he doesn't show, the case gets dismissed.

Dave has said that it's not worth his time/money to fight it any more. He should ask for a dismissal based on taking the course, or at the least, ask for an Adjournment in Contemplation of Dismissal (ACD) - the court adjourns the case for 6 months, and so long as he doesn't get in any other trouble, the case automatically gets dismissed.


_________________________


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WALSHIE

RO# 2124



Posted - Nov 21 2017 :  12:42:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My experience. I received a ticket for not having a valid NY drivers license on Long Island. I had moved to CT, turned in my NY license, had a valid CT license....however, I had a speeding ticket from 10yrs prior that I didn't address (asked for trial, never heard back, etc). So, technically my right to drive in NY was revoked (weird but I get it).

I cleared up the speeding ticket, paid it 10 years later, the original officer wasn't there. But another officer represented him, we plead it down, all good. He did say if I wanted, we can schedule a trial, I chose not to.

Went to LI, the officer didn't show up, I thought I was golden since the officer was not there. NOPE, the DA said this is a pre-trial hearing. I'd have to come back if I want a real trial...considering the distance, I plead it down, paid and left.

Also, I once had a bad dealing with a hot-head officer. He wrote me 5 violations, one I was guilty of (expired registration) and was NASTY. I use a lawyer, requested the deposition, didn't get it. Lawyer sent me alone to the court date to ask for a dismissal. All 5 were dismissed even though the officer was there. HOWEVER, my attorney informed me they will dismiss the tickets but reserve the right to re-issue them...so don't be a jerk.

That's my experiences with this officer no-show business.


Favorite Quote: Don't sweat the petty things...AND...Don't pet the sweaty things!! - Steven Tyler

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JVM225

RO# 28365

Posted - Nov 21 2017 :  14:24:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by WALSHIE

My experience. I received a ticket for not having a valid NY drivers license on Long Island. I had moved to CT, turned in my NY license, had a valid CT license....however, I had a speeding ticket from 10yrs prior that I didn't address (asked for trial, never heard back, etc). So, technically my right to drive in NY was revoked (weird but I get it).

I cleared up the speeding ticket, paid it 10 years later, the original officer wasn't there. But another officer represented him, we plead it down, all good. He did say if I wanted, we can schedule a trial, I chose not to.

Went to LI, the officer didn't show up, I thought I was golden since the officer was not there. NOPE, the DA said this is a pre-trial hearing. I'd have to come back if I want a real trial...considering the distance, I plead it down, paid and left.

Also, I once had a bad dealing with a hot-head officer. He wrote me 5 violations, one I was guilty of (expired registration) and was NASTY. I use a lawyer, requested the deposition, didn't get it. Lawyer sent me alone to the court date to ask for a dismissal. All 5 were dismissed even though the officer was there. HOWEVER, my attorney informed me they will dismiss the tickets but reserve the right to re-issue them...so don't be a jerk.

That's my experiences with this officer no-show business.



Exactly my point! Most of these type violations are adjudicated without a trial.
Personally, as an otherwise law abiding citizen, I would never ask for a trial for a minor violation offense. I think it’s just asking for trouble.
But to each his own.
However, I stand by my original advice in that in matters like these you are much better off paying a Lawyer who specializes in these things for an appearance. They know the system, prosecutors, and judges and have the best idea on how to present it so that you get the best possible outcome as quickly as possible.
Your better off standing by your Lawyers side with your mouth shut and being guided by his advice if a question is directed at you.


2002 Sea Ray 410 Sundancer
95 Eastern 22'
05 Maxum 18' Bowrider
C6 Corvette Convertible
68 GTO


Homeport: Farmingdale NY Go to Top of Page

CurrentSea

RO# 10265



Posted - Nov 21 2017 :  16:02:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I disagree - Hiring an attorney would of cost me probably about $700
I am out nothing.
How do you figure that?
Lost wages - I think I said, I work more than 40 hours a week and I am salaried, so I lose nothing showing up.



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