BoaterEd Store      - Help Support This Forum - Join Today!      Hunting/Fishing Stuff
BoaterEd
Username:
Password:
Save Password


Register

Active Topics | Active Polls | Resources | Members | Online Users | Avatar Legend | Statistics
[ Active Members: 3 | Guests: 165 ]  [ Total: 168 ]  [ Newest Member: colrhino ]
 All Forums
 Forums
 Ask the Captain
 VTBoater: 1988 Silverton 454 ignition problem
 New Topic |   New Poll New Poll |   Reply to Topic | 
Author Previous Topic: Motorized surfboard???, Topic Next Topic: 454 crusader oil, transmission fluid and trim tab  

tcarriere

RO# 34076

Posted - Dec 26 2018 :  21:50:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
VTBoater, 1988 Silverton 454 gas engines.
Starboard would not engage solenoid to starter unless moving mechanical shift around. Then, failed to work at all. I Hot wired the neutral safety switch on the tranny and no luck. Ignition switch was replaced middle of summer. I hot wired the starter and the solenoid jumped forward fine but does not when using ignition key. When hot jumping starter solenoid it moved forward but would not turn starter gear on fly wheel. not sure why not. I think i have to work back to switches and regulator near starter. Any other ideas? The 50 amp breaker was already removed and hot wired by prior owner.
Clueless

Edited by - tcarriere on Dec 26 2018 21:51:35

Homeport: PA

jtybt15

RO# 3300



Posted - Dec 28 2018 :  06:03:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
First of all, make sure the tranny is in neutral.

Basically, to hot wire an engine, you run a wire from the Batt Pos (+) to the pos (+) side of the coil. Do not leave this wire connected if the engine isn't running. It can potentially burn the points in the dist if you have point type ign.

To test the starter, connect a jumper cable from the big post on the side of the starter to the Batt Pos (+). Connect the jumper cable to the heavy post on the side of the starter before connecting to the Batt. to avoid welding/melting the post on the side of the starter. The starter should turn freely...(not engaging the engine). If the engine turns over, the solenoid is being energized. If you have the remote type or slave solenoid it would be easier to jump the starter. Connect the two small contacts on the solenoid to turn the starter and engine over. These are the contacts that you can also add a permanent remote starter switch.

The neutral safety switch simply disengages the ignition circuit unless the tranny is in neutral. It's mostly a safety feature to prevent engine from starting in gear.





Charlie

There is much to be said, in a world like ours, for taking the world as you find it and fishing with a worm.-Bliss Perry, 1904



Edited by - jtybt15 on Dec 28 2018 06:10:15

Homeport: Ca Go to Top of Page

VTBoater

RO# 30718

Posted - Dec 28 2018 :  08:22:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Charlies description is really good.
The only thing I would add is I did have a starter fail on one engine a couple years ago. I first noticed that engine would turn over more slowly than the other. I replaced the main wire to the starter, and made sure it was not a battery issue. Still turned over slowly. Then it failed completely, of course it was when we were out a couple hours from the dock. It smelled burned up after it failed. It could certainly appear to be neutral switch issue and be the starter, mine was acting up on and off before it failed altogether.
With a new starter it turned over much faster.


Boatless

Homeport: Colchester, VT Go to Top of Page

tcarriere

RO# 34076

Posted - Dec 28 2018 :  11:19:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you Charlie and Boatless aka VTBoater. I will bring more cables and properly jump the starter. I actually hard wired the wrong switch on the tranny,
I hard wired the temperature switch. I will visit on Jan 5 and plug the temp switch back in after cleaning connections and bring a better light and better position to see the neutral safety switch. I was able to fit behind port side but starboard I have to lay on my chest on board and look down over the engine. I will bring more jumper cables and wires and cleaning tools. I really think the neutral switch is bad since the 4 times we started boat we had to keep moving the shift to drive to get the connection. Daughters bought this boat and now pops is having a blast learning about it.LOL. We have zero boating knowledge. I found a generic Silverton manual and read this for hours. I want to replace all the rusty fuses in the helm dash. they look like standard 20 or 25 amp fuses about 1" long clear. Do they sell marine fuses less likely to rust up?


Clueless

Homeport: PA Go to Top of Page

Sandy

RO# 1159

Posted - Dec 28 2018 :  19:35:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you have Velvet Drive 71C or 72Cs, the neutral safety start switch is on the case directly opposite the gear lever, on the opposite side of the same shaft. There is a good chance that is the problem and easy to jump across or remove on wire and connect to the other to bypass temporarily. Easy to replace as well.

https://www.amazon.com/Velvet-Transmission-Neutral-Safety-1000640004/dp/B007I91ULE

But you might put a socket and breaker bar on the crank pulley nut to see if you can manually rotate the crank just in case you are dealing with hydrolock.

Also, strongly suggest you replace the 50 amp engine main breaker. It was there to help protect the wiring, engine and you. .

Make sure there are NO gas fumes when you go to jump the starter. They are heavy so they will collect in the lowest spaces, and can explode.

Quality glass cartidge fuses ( Bussmann, Ancor,etc. ) should not rust ( though they can corrode.) Should have end caps of nickel plated brass. Replace anything that looks corroded including holders. A little silicone dielectric grease on the clean metal parts will help protect from corrosion in the future.

Be careful, but have FUN!


Sandy

Homeport: The Vineyard Go to Top of Page

tcarriere

RO# 34076

Posted - Dec 29 2018 :  15:00:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sandy. IS the engine blower the switch on the helm console on the left so I can clear the engine room of any vapors? Are their more than one blower to clear the fumes from the engine room below? I never smell fumes but seems like good idea to turn blower on for a few minutes before starting.

Clueless

Homeport: PA Go to Top of Page

speedo

RO# 14386

Posted - Dec 29 2018 :  16:12:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tcarriere

Sandy. IS the engine blower the switch on the helm console on the left so I can clear the engine room of any vapors? Are their more than one blower to clear the fumes from the engine room below? I never smell fumes but seems like good idea to turn blower on for a few minutes before starting.

It's ALWAYS a good idea to turn on the blower before cranking. I always had mine on for 10-15 minutes while loading and preparing to get underway. Especially important after fueling or the boat has been sitting idle for some time.

I want to be polite, here, but this is Boating 1a. Very important safety stuff that you should already know. Please take a boating safety course or have a knowledgeable friend give you some basics. Not using a blower is one of the major causes of boat explosions, especially right after fueling.


speedo
Redding, CA

Homeport: Go to Top of Page

Sandy

RO# 1159

Posted - Dec 29 2018 :  16:59:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thomas- I'm not familiar with Silvertons, but you should be able to hear the blowers working when you hit the right switch . Usually there will be a blower system for each engine room and its common for the ductwork to deteriorate or fall off the the hull vent devices so check to make sure you can feel strong air flow exiting the hull vents on each side. If ducting has been compromised, potentially explosive heavy fumes just get recirculated back in the boat. Replace ducting as necessary to be safe. As speedo suggests, the blower fume-venting system is crucial to your safety on a gas inboard boat.

Boater safety course is highly recommended, and is required in some states. Some are a joke and worthless, some classroom courses over many sessions can be extremely beneficially educational.


Sandy

Homeport: The Vineyard Go to Top of Page

cwms

RO# 7357

Posted - Dec 29 2018 :  18:55:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As far as the engines go, and most everything else either mechanical, electronics or electrical, don't get hung up on the boat being a Silverton. Just about everything you have can be found on dozens of brands of boats. Right now, you have engine issues, probably either Mercruiser or Crusader.


Homeport: VA Go to Top of Page

jtybt15

RO# 3300



Posted - Dec 29 2018 :  21:54:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The most likely cause of a starter burning up is from a bad connection/corrosion, brushes worn...or the engine seizing up. In other words, excessive load on the starter. The starter has to be solidly mounted and aligned so the pinion gear engages smoothly.

One of the most overlooked problem is the grounds. The ground to the block being the most ignored. The starter is a very high amperage motor and requires all the juice the battery has to offer. Most other electrical components will run fine even with a marginal connection. The best thing you can do for these heavy connections is to remove and wire brush them along with the mount to the block.Use a 30 cal bore brush to clean the threads in the block and liberally smear di-electric silicone grease on all cleaned metal parts. It will keep AIR/Oxygen and water away from the parts.





Charlie

There is much to be said, in a world like ours, for taking the world as you find it and fishing with a worm.-Bliss Perry, 1904



Homeport: Ca Go to Top of Page

onthecreek

RO# 11208

Posted - Jan 01 2019 :  11:56:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
30 year old battery cables are suspect. If they haven't already been replaced it's a good idea to do so.

Also, your transmission lever cable could be out of adjustment and not placing the transmission in neutral when the lever appears to requiring the jiggling to start. To check this disconnect the cable from the gear selector lever on the transmission. Move the gear selector lever by hand. Neutral should have a noticeable indent. Make sure it's in neutral and see if it will start. If you're definitely in neutral and still no start you can rule out the cable needing adjustment. If the boat starts (shut it down), re-attach the cable making sure doing so doesn't move the gear selector out of neutral. If it does adjust the cable so it doesn't. It should have a threaded portion near the end allowing you to lengthen or shorten the cable a bit.



Homeport: Go to Top of Page

ericsilv

RO# 10428

Posted - Jan 01 2019 :  12:43:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
vtboater your right its the neutral switch You hot wired the temp sensor for the transmission and of course that didnt fix the issue It started when you jiggled the trans cable because it the switch

The end caps of heat exchanger are over switch occasional little drops of saltwater fall on switch and that what causes issue You should dissemble lever and clean everything including the little ball bearing that sits in the indent on the lever see if that fixes the issue



Homeport: brooklyn Go to Top of Page

tcarriere

RO# 34076

Posted - Jan 08 2019 :  16:54:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I drove 2 hours up to Jersey City and checked all the items from this thread. I have opened a can of worms but making progress. it was a chilly rainy day and I only had 3 hours to work. I restored the plug wire on trans temp gauge. located neutral safety switch and the wire screwed in was really loose. I tightened it up and no luck. The oil pressure alarm would not even work. I replaced all fuses in the cold rain on the dashboard and one in the engine room. I found a few disconnected wires from the new ignition switch replacement and one purple wire broken. I fixed all the dash issue and closed her up for now. Still no engine alarm. Then i notice the missing 50 amp breaker and bracket were dangling from the engine. Could not find the bolt hole or bolt. Will get new bolt and and replace 20 amp fuse in the plug connector. I think the bracket and 50 amp fuse need to be bolted in the block to create a good ground. thanks for the help.
I checked anti freeze and surprised the color was pink and not green as needed. it was about 5" below filler hole when engine cold. The book says it should be 1" below hole but not not say cold or hot.


Clueless

Edited by - tcarriere on Jan 08 2019 17:01:18

Homeport: PA Go to Top of Page

tcarriere

RO# 34076

Posted - Jan 08 2019 :  16:58:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The blower fan can turn on from breaker panel and dashboard and lights up. I cannot hear the fan motor. The fumes are not noticed at all. it has the vents and my daughter sealed one vent off to keep boat warmer.
Should I hear this fan? where is it located?


Clueless

Edited by - tcarriere on Jan 08 2019 16:59:35

Homeport: PA Go to Top of Page

Sandy

RO# 1159

Posted - Jan 08 2019 :  17:28:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Don't seal off the vents, they are there to help keep you alive. You should be able to hear a blower for each engine compartment AND feel the strong vent exhaust flow out the vents the blowers are... or should be... connected to. If not, that needs fixing BEFORE you notice any fumes.

The big push button engine breaker is often mounted on a bracket right over ( and hiding) the remote starter relay, so maybe that is one of the reasons it was fooled with. Need to replace the 50?A breaker to help protect the engine wiring and electrical parts before things get worse.

If you aren't confident you know what needs addressing and how, it would be wise to have a marine pro get involved, as this stuff should not be cobbled together like the previous owner apparently did.
Just noting, A marine surveyor should have found most all of these faults and more before the purchase. They know what to look for and check carefully if they are experienced and professional. In the long run, that can save money and lots of downtime or unwise purchase if the survey so indicates. .


Sandy

Homeport: The Vineyard Go to Top of Page

cwms

RO# 7357

Posted - Jan 08 2019 :  17:32:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tcarriere

The blower fan can turn on from breaker panel and dashboard and lights up. I cannot hear the fan motor. The fumes are not noticed at all. it has the vents and my daughter sealed one vent off to keep boat warmer.
Should I hear this fan? where is it located?



I've never been on a boat that you couldn't hear the bilge blower running. Maybe big yachts, but anything smaller than 45-50', it should be easily heard.
Always run it for 5+ minutes.

You never answered...what RPM's are you running to only get to 10 mph?



Homeport: VA Go to Top of Page

tcarriere

RO# 34076

Posted - Jan 10 2019 :  14:02:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I replaced the entire marine based starter on port side and not a hard job with all floor boards out and I created a bench seat to sit on. The starboard side starter solenoid and starter worked great the last time we drove the boat but someone put a hose clamp around the solenoid before we bought the boat.
i will replace the entire starter but first I need to bolt the 50 amp breaker and bracket to engine to see if this fixes the oil pressure alarm not sounding off. Anyone know if this breaker bracket needs to be bolted to provide a good ground so it will start and or the oil pressure alarm is heard? We have no idea how long the bracket was hanging off but we may have gotten lucky with ground since edge of bracket was leaning against the engine until I moved it last Saturday. The oil pressure alarm worked fine the week before i moved the bracket to tighten the neutral safety switch screws. Need to find the bolt and the bolt hole but I think I will have better luck with the floor removed and I climb below and sit in rear of engine.


Clueless

Homeport: PA Go to Top of Page

Sandy

RO# 1159

Posted - Jan 10 2019 :  18:23:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tom- I believe the answer to your bracket grounding question would have to be a "qualified no". The circuit breaker only has positive wire in and positve wire out and is not involved with grounding.

However....., as mentioned above, especially on Crusaders and possibly other makes ( what are yours?), the main on-engine circuit breaker and bracket cover or possibly just the same bolts ...may.. secure the remote/slave/auxiliary starter relay/solenoid to the block.

I am looking at the 1988 Crusader engine owner's manual which includes their 454 engines and it's wiring diagram appears to show that remote relay with only positive connections( 3 terminals, no 4th for ground.)
That means that the relay's primary circuit finds it's return path to negative ground through the engine block directly via it's case and fasteners ( not separately wired to the block or neg bus as some of those remote relays are.)
It's secondary circuit seeks ground return through the starter solenoid and starter, block and main battery to block neg, cable. .

But the low oil pressure, coolant over-temp, and transmission-fluid over-temp alarm switches on the engine that activate the buzzer all are "one-wire", with positive lead going to an insulated terminal on those switches. Then when alarm conditions exist (i.e., low oil pressure before or after starting) the switch closes to complete the circuit through the switch and block threads and engine block which must have a goog ground connection back to all the batteries' neg posts or stud.

If the starter spins when the ign. key is turned to Start, the block clearly has a good connection to neg ground, and thus the alarm switch should sound when the key is on Run as long as there is still continuity in the positve (wire) connection between the actual alarm buzzer and the O.P. switch and the switch itself is not faulty.
( The alarm buzzer's negative connection is through the engine's alarm switches. The buzzer's positive lt. blue/tan lead is powered from the ignition switch "I" terminal, I believe. )

If the starter pinion gear is shifted to the flywheel but neither the starter or flywheel turn, Check to make sure the batteries are fully charged ( ~~12.7-12.8 vdc. ) and you can read that at the solenoid. If so, put a scket and breaker bar on the crankshaft pulley and see if it will move to confirm the engine is not hydro-locked. ( you mentioned replacing the starter.-If by any chance that was the wrong rotation* it would suck sea water into the cylinders.)

Probably not well explained but I expect you get the drift. Hope it helps and not hinder.


*
http://www.arcomarine.com/xhtml/tech%20determine%20marine%20starter%20rotation.pdf


Sandy

Edited by - Sandy on Jan 10 2019 18:48:32

Homeport: The Vineyard Go to Top of Page

tcarriere

RO# 34076

Posted - Jan 11 2019 :  16:01:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Sandy. I will start with bolting the circuit breaker bracket back to the engine block where it should be. Then, I will bring a multi meter and trace all the connections from the ignition to the starter as you pointed out. I have a manual similar to yours.

Clueless

Homeport: PA Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic: Motorized surfboard???, Topic Next Topic: 454 crusader oil, transmission fluid and trim tab  
 New Topic |   New Poll New Poll |   Reply to Topic | 
Jump To:
BoaterEd © BoaterEd Go To Top Of Page
This page took 0.48 seconds to load
Forum Guidelines and Privacy Notice

    

Boatered.com