water in oil-like coffee very dark,my 1999 gs 249

With the better comp test results , signs are pointing more toward riser to manifold leak traveling into the #8 exhaust port.
 
hey sandy thanks so much for reply,(riser to exhaust manifold leak)i was thinking the same,but i never had the exhaust manifolds and risers on the boat with RV antifreeze in the motor,i pulled manifold and risers right away for inspection and crank the motor no pugs in to be sure to clear the cylinders(and had put fresh oil in twice)i can gravity fill the motor again and crank it to see if rv anti freeze shows up.would that indiciate intake manifold gasket?(with a crank only).or just bolt on the new manifolds start her up and see what happens?
 
The thing is, the intake gasket water passage is way up front and a water leak there, would be more likely to show up in one of the front cyls, either #1 or #2, however it is possible because, Chevy small block heads are the same casting for each side. So the intake gasket has the same square sealing surface for the very front end and rear end of the gasket. The front ports are open so the hot water flows up and out of the heads into the intake manifold water passage and then out through the thermostat (when open) and finally out through the exhaust system. The rear ports are sealed by the gasket and the rear part of the intake. If the rear part of the intake gasket leaks, it is possible for water to get into one of the rear cyls. If that's your problem, then the solution is relatively easy, remove the intake (after removing the carb, distributor etc) and carefully check the sealing surface of the heads and intake. If this is a Vortec engine (8 bolts on the intake, pre-Vortec uses 12) the torque on these intake bolts is very low compared to the old pre-Vortecs, its like 10 ft lbs. On the early Vortec engines I hear that intake gasket leaks were common. If this turns out to be the case, I'd recommend a set of FelPro marine intake gaskets, and carefully clean the bolts for the intake manifold, and the threads in the cyl heads, so you get proper torque. Note that when removing the intake you should set the engine at TDC of the #1 spark plug with the dist rotor pointing at #1, before removing the dist to remove the intake. Otherwise it may be tough to get the dist back in the correct position.

Keep in mind in my engine I had both HGs blown, the engine had normal comp test results, but the way they were blown I was not losing compression, it was allowing water in a cyl as the engine cooled off. So you might have that problem instead of the intake issue. Only way to know, is to put your new exhaust on, and run the engine to check for air in the cooling water. If you get bubbles (replace your manifold feed hoses with clear hose, then run it till the stat opens up and look at the water in those hoses) then its a H/G or cracked head. If not that's great, probably just the intake gasket. Removing the heads is not difficult, I did it on a raw water cooled engine that was used in salt for 15+ years, I used a De Walt 1/2" drive electric impact gun and did not break even one bolt! The intake on mine was hard to get off due to the intake gaskets being baked on, but the heads came off easy. I would strongly recommend doing the air in your cooling water test first. Intake gasket leaks are more likely to put water in the oil and not they cyls while head gasket leaks can put it in both the oil and a cyl. The reason why is that if a fire ring on the H/G leaks, it is right next to the cyl water passage whereas the intake port, is not that close to the water passage on both ends of the cyl head....when an intake gasket leaks the water will run down the head right into the cam valley right into the oil....

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2pu8ac8x71e5u93/4.3 starboard cyl head removal.JPG?dl=0
 
Nice post Lou. Very informative as always! T/Y
 
Thanks, its amazing what you can learn, by taking an engine apart! This job took me a few months because I had never done it before and had to get advice from a few different people (mechanic, machinist at a local hot rod/machine shop). What's good about these old school engines is that they are easy to take apart, the all cast iron construction is very rugged, not as likely to strip threads or break bolts and the parts are really inexpensive compared to outboards.
 
hey LouC thanks for the info,upon careful inspection of manifold,i notice #8 port on manifold very rusty (other ports mostly just black) and it looks like the riser gasket on same might have failed,(hard to be sure)bubble test sounds like a great ,the clear hosed go from thermostat housing to exhaust manifold and look for bubbles there?(the hose should be solid water and no air at all?)BTW i see you are in Long Island/farmingdale?i'm in staten island.
 
Yes the water flow from the thermostat housing to the manifolds should not be aireated but you have to wait till the thermostat starts to open up, which can take a while idling on the water hose on a cold day. Get an IR temp gun and read the temp of the hoses from the stat housing, they will be cold at first but then start to warm up when the stat opens to let hot water out of the intake manifold. When the engine is cold, the incoming water from the impeller will just go out the exhaust. If you see air bubbles then, your impeller housing or hoses can be sucking in air and that will skew results. So with a cold engine, good fitting muffs on lower unit, there should be no air in that water flow. Then when the hoses to the manifolds start to get warmer (that is a sign of the stat opening and letting hot water out of the engine) you should still not see air bubbles, if so, that's a sign of blown HGs, or a cracked head or block. If you get bubbles with a cold engine though, the test will not be meaningful.
 
PS those riser gaskets are problematical. This is why Merc went to the dry joint system which is a better system for avoiding leaks at the gasket, although the parts do cost a good bit more. So, when you install your new exhaust carefully follow the instructions for those manifold to elbow gaskets. I used the Barr ones on mine, coated both sides with Permatex aviation sealer, torqued to 25-30 lbs, warmed up the engine and then retorqued. So far (2 years later) no leaks.
I'm on the North Shore of LI, near LI Sound.
 
If you google "Volvo Penta Gas Engine Overheat Diagnosis" you will find a publication where VP explains how to troubleshoot overheating. One of the tests is to find out if there is air in the water flow from the impeller but they also cover air getting into the flow from the thermostat housing and how to test further if its a cyl head gasket leak or cracked head. I read through this and then came up with my own test for HG leaks, you have to do it fast because you don't have water flow to the exhaust manifolds but if you watch the vid to the end, you can clearly see bubbles in the water in the funnel on the port side and some on the starboard side. Took it apart and sure enough both HGs blown.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ur4ny75jwrtd1to/OMC 4.3-5.0-5.7 thermo housing.jpg?dl=0
this pic shows the flow through the stat housing....

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8lz4p4e7pdrtqr2/testing for blown head gaskets.MOV?dl=0
this is my dynamic test (engine running) to test for blown head gaskets...watch to the very end....I had removed the stat to make it easier to see air bubbles in the water flow.

So what was happening was...I'd run the motor, Let it cool, then take plugs out and crank it over to check for water. Did not get water at first....till engine cooled all the way down....then next day there was water in cyl #2 and just a mist of water in cyl #1. So what was happening was the HG leak, was becoming apparent as the engine cooled off. It would run, not overheat and had close to normal comp test results but had water in the oil and those 2 front cyls. Eventually I had sticking valves due to the water and corrosion. However, taking it apart revealed very little corrosion on the valve train, heads, pushrods etc. Cam and lifters looked like new. I used Merc's 25/40 marine oil maybe that helped.
 
i started the boat up today with new exhaust manifolds and elbows,started right up, idle fine,very little sign of water, i changed the oil and filter again and ran it again(10 minutes) no sign of water in oil.i will run it next couple of days and see what happens.
 
Good deal you may have gotten lucky! Just keep an eye on those manifold to elbow gaskets....
 
thanks again LouC, yea, its still looking good,going to do one more oil change before i winterize the boat,i coated the elbow gaskets with permatex as you said all though vendor(ebasic said not too ???)in the past i have used the starboard side elbow as a step stool when climbing out of engine compartment(for years) i am thinking that was a real bad idea with an old gasket and 18 ft lbs of torque(may have caused my problem!after heating and re torque the bolts i would say average 1/3 to 1-4 turn more(seem normal?)BTW i bought a brand new torque wrench for the job)happy holidays to you and your family,Pete
 
Sounds good, I used the Permatex based on advice from a tech guy from Barr Marine. I retorqued the bolts once after warming up the engine and that was 2 years ago all good since.
My engine (1988) originally had the OMC one piece batwing exhaust manifolds (you can see em in my last vid above) and I had changed them 3 times over 15+ years of salt water use. Being one piece, they never leaked water into a cyl. But as with a lot of older stuff they became No Longer Available so I had to convert over to the 2 piece exhaust used on later OMCs and Volvos.

interesting about stepping on the starboard exhaust elbow and your leak was at cyl #8 which is the last one on the starboard side.
like I said Volvo knew there were issues with those gaskets and they revised them several times. The new style Volvo OE elbow gaskets do not need sealer but its a good idea I think to use them on the Barr ones. They are different types of gaskets.

PS I don't know what the forecast low temps are where you live (Staten Island right) but here it will be cold enough that until you can winterize it fully I'd drain the block and manifolds.
 
Hey Lou,

Thanks for contacting us.

If you are using our gaskets (not the carbon type usually supplied by Volvo-otherwise follow their specs) I usually recommend using a Permatex “Form A Gasket” that can be purchased from any automotive parts supply house. I use this on the riser mating surface and put a little on the threads of the bolts.

I take a sharp putty knife and scrape the paint off the riser surfaces and clean up with a “Scotch Brite” pad with lacquer thinner or rubbing alcohol. Place the riser gaskets on cardboard, brush on the sealant and bolt the risers tight. I don’t use a torque wrench but I would say somewhere between 36-38 Lb-Ft. I re-torque after the first warm-up and after the first 10 hours or so (obviously if there are no leaks at the gasket during the process).

I hope this helps. Please feel free to call me if you have any questions or concerns.

Thanks,
David

PS I found this e-mail from the tech guy at Barr from 2 years ago.....
 
yea,ty,cold here at night! i have filled the engine with RV fluid twice already$, as temps dip into 20's,or had a heater in the engine compartment$,no water in oil filter yesterday,oil seems clear,i have the old oil in jars, dated, for inspection, and its looking good,3rd oil change in yesterday(always use mobile 1 full synthetic 20w-50)fram oil filter 3.99, volvo penta filter 9.99,do you think there is a difference?(besides the size of the filter?)i have on board oil changer pump installed so its easy to do oil changes. i bought a set of volvo penta spark plugs 3.99 each, the box said volvo penta, when i opened the a box it was a champion rs12yc,which sells for 2.00 each anywhere!
 
The 20/50 Mobil 1 is fine, as far as oil filters I use either the Merc/Quicksilver or the Sierra Marine filters, Fram does not have a good rep but that might be old information at this point. For oil I use the Merc/Quicksilver 25/40, I think it has superior corrosion resistance and to prove it, take a look at the pic of my engine with the intake removed. You can see there is no corrosion in the cam valley, on the heads, or pushrods and that engine had salt water in it for over a week before I figured out what was wrong with it. When I took it all apart I was amazed that the cam, lifters, pushrods and rocker arms all looked like new. No rust, etc.
Spark plugs I like the AC delco MR43 or MR44, for the older non vortec engines, if you have a Vortec, (8 bolts on the intake, non Vortec has 12) the plugs are different. AC Delco plugs have superior corrosion resistance in salt water use, at least in my experience.

So your main thing now is keep an eye on those elbow gaskets.
Here's a tip, what I do at the end of the season is I fog the engine. To not foul my new plugs, I put in a set of old plugs just to fog it. When you take the plugs out, check for water ingestion. If you catch it then, instead of it sitting over the winter like that, you save having to pull the cyl heads off, or worse, putting in a new or reman long block! One extra step that can save a lot of cash!

Keep up the good work!
 
ty LouC,when you winterize do you leave the block drained or fill with RV antifreeze,do you gravity feed the block with antifreeze or use muffs?how long do you keep batteries i have 2 1000 mca,6 years old they load test at 500 mca ,the rs12yc is the volvo penta factory plug so thats what i used,last set had 120 hrs on them,boat is covered and put away for the winter in the spring i will start her up do an oil change,fresh plugs,if we get a warmer day maybe i'll pull the plugs just to take a look,shoot some fogging oil in the nmotor
 
bannditt; just my 2 cents. I was always told to store boat for winter with fresh oil. Always did it that way on 3 boats since '76. Just getting that old acid ladden oil out of engine. Worked for me !
 
I have always changed the oil when I winterize it.
As far as draining, I manually drain poke all the drain holes and then manually fill with either -100 (-45 freeze protection) Marine AF (if I'm too lazy to mix up my own) or, I mix up 4 gallons of Sierra PG antifreeze 50/50 with water, that gives a -26 freeze protection (plenty good for our winters). I do not use either the -50 or -60 since they get hard (but don't expand) at between +7 and zero. Even West Marine in their recommendations, advises that -50 and -60 are for winters where it doesn't get colder than 20 degrees. I don't want an antifreeze that will get hard in a cast iron block, even if it does not expand. This point is not well understood by do it yourselfers. I do think that adding antifreeze with corrosion inhibitors helps reduce corrosion, just like spraying trailer leaf springs with Corrosion X does, but you need to use the right stuff for your climate. Remember you DRAIN For freeze protection and add A/F for corrosion protection. The way I do it is:

Put the drive down, start engine on the muffs. Warm it up, change oil and filter. Then remove the plugs, disable ignition briefly crank over engine, check for water in cyls. If none put in old plugs, run engine again and fog through carb if a carbed engine. If not follow manufacturer's instructions for fogging mix in fuel filter or remote tank.

Once fogged, let it cool off. Then remove: 2 block plugs, poke holes, 2 manifold plugs, same, let it drain. After draining, replace plugs, put some Permatex Aviation sealer on the threads (prevents corrosion and leaks) Then disconnect: big hose from thermo housing at bottom, this lets water drain from front circ pump, and raw water intake hose at thermo housing (Alpha, Cobra) or impeller housing (Bravo, Volvo). Hold it down in the bilge, to drain, then hold it up and fill it with AF till it runs out the drive water intakes. Reconnect both hoses. Then disconnect big hose at thermo housing, fill it with 2 gallons and a bit more of AF that will fill engine, till you see some AF spurt out the housing neck. Then reconnect upper end of that hose. The next day will change the drive oil check for water in the oil. Pull drive for winter storage check bellows for water, grease gimble bearing and u joints.

Batteries, I usually use em till they won't take a full charge, I have a battery capacity tester now, and they do come back to their rated capacity, one batt is 5 years old the other is 7. In spring I'll test them again, if not good I will replace both. Also going to replace the old heavy direct drive starter with an ARCO PMGR starter, they draw less current and spin the engine faster.

In spring after the first start up, I take out the plugs used to fog it, check for water in the cyls and put in my newly cleaned plugs. Grease steering, drive shift linkage and re-install the drive. I usually get 10 years out of the Cobra style bellows. The I/O is a good bit of maintenance but it is simple for the most part, engines are simpler than outboards by far.
 
hey LOU C,ty, you use battery load tester, and after 5 - 7 years they are still at full charge?what brand batteries? i have 2 west marine 1000 mca after 6 seasons they are at 500 mca on the load tester,i always keep the switch on both when using boat.i dont leave them in the boat over the winter and charge when needed.auto zone sells marine batteries dirt cheap a 900 mca about 100 bucks but i know there not the best.
 
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