NMEA2000 fuel sensors for return fuel line setup

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Hello,

I'm trying to find a setup to send fuel flow data to my MFD. The engines are twin 1999 Crusader 454 XLI 7.4L (gas). And the MFD is the Lowrance HDS7 Touch.

The problem is the return fuel line this uses. The only sensors I can find that work with these engines (and setup) are the ones from Floscan but they come with their own display.

I'd like to get sensors that'll send data directly to the Lowrance.

Anyone else run across this problem? Any solutions?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
 
I don't believe you need sensors on that engine. All the data is compiled in the engine's onboard computer.

It should be a plug and play as Lowrance and Crusader are both NMEA 2K.
 
quote:
Originally posted by KiDa

I don't believe you need sensors on that engine. All the data is compiled in the engine's onboard computer.

It should be a plug and play as Lowrance and Crusader are both NMEA 2K.

Click to expand...


That would be great, but I don't think the engines supply that data on the 1999 models though. I've looked in the owners manual and the installation manual and all I see reference the ECM is the wiring harness etc... I see remotes for a few different things, but nothing concerning fuel flow. I sure hope I'm wrong as the setup will be a lot easier, cheaper and simpler.
 
You may have J1939 data available check with Crusader.
Also there are J1939 to NMEA2000 converters not that you should have to do that.
Maretron J1939 To NMEA 2000 Bridge the J2K100

Here is a J1939 to NMEA2000 converter.
Maretron J1939 To NMEA 2000 Bridge the J2K100

About J1939 data
J1939 Home
J1939 Introduction

This article is intended to give engineers a brief overview of the SAE J1939 protocol.

SAE J1939 is a replacement for the SAE J1587/J1708 network which has been used for medium and heavy duty commercial vehicles for the past 20 years. Today J1939 is used as the standard communications bus for commercial vehicle's diagnostic and control applications. Due to its popularity and success, it has been adopted by the agricultural (ISO 11789) and marine industries (NMEA2000). Competing high-level CAN protocols are ISO 15765 and CANopen.

J1939 Overview

SAE J1939 is a high level communications protocol, which operates on a Controller Area Network (CAN) bus. J1939 specifies exactly how information (e.g. engine RPM) is exchanged between electronic control units (ECUs) on a vehicle.

It defines the data's priority, size, scaling, and offset. For example, J1939 specifies engine RPM to have a default priority of 3, to have a size of 16-bits, a resolution of 0.125 rpm/bit, and an offset of 0.

The standard goes on to define many other aspects, including message timeouts, how large messages are fragmented and reassembled, the network speed, the physical layer, and how applications acquire network addresses.

J1939 Messages

At the heart of J1939 is the Parameter Group Number (PGN), which is a unique number assigned to every J1939 message. The PGN serves to identify the message and its data. Although sometimes a message will contain a single parameter (e.g. VIN), typically the PGN will contain a group of parameters. In the standard there is a total of 8,672 PGNs.

For an example message, take PGN 61,444. It identifies the "Electronic Engine Controller 1" message. Per the specification, "EEC1" has seven different parameters embedded in the data field of the message. Engine RPM is one of those seven parameters.

J1939 Message Sizes

J1939 has three different allowed message sizes, they are: 3 bytes, 8 bytes, and variable length. There is only one message which is three bytes in length, and that is the request message (PGN 59,904).

The majority of messages in J1939 are 8 bytes in length. This allows for a more efficient use of the network bandwidth by maximizing the amount of data on the network by reducing the number of messages.

Variable length messages are messages with a length from 9 to 1,785 bytes. These messages are too large to fit in a single CAN data frame and must be fragmented by the transmitter and reassembled by the receiver. This process is defined by J1939's transport protocol which is specified by J1939-21.

J1939 Physical Layers

Currently there are two 250 Kbps physical layers defined, J1939-11 and J1939-15, with a 500 Kbps layer, J1939-14, under development.

J1939-11 specifies a shielded twisted pair of wires with a maximum backbone length of 40 meters. It uses a three pin connector and allows for up to 30 nodes.

J1939-15 specifies an unshielded twisted pair of wires with a maximum backbone length of 40 meters. It uses a two pin connector and allows for up to 10 nodes.

J1939 to RS232 SAE J1939 CANopen Software

J1939 Introduction | Copyright 2013
 
I could well be wrong, but I don't believe Crusader employed the SAE J/1939 protocol until about 2007 when I believe they went to a substantially different from earlier versions, MEFI-5 ignition system.( Now up to maybe -7 or -8 I think I was told at the N.Eng Boat Show.)

I suspect the 1999 injected blue engine probably had MEFI-2 or maybe -3(?), dunno. That may be in your engine manual. It definitely does not have any direct NMEA 0183 or 2000 interfacing capability.

I can access rather accurate fuel flow GPH ( and displayed derived, resettable Total Gallons Used for both P & S engines and some selected other ECM data) on my 2003 Crusader 5.7L MPI's with MEFI-4 ignition via B&G's very handy NetEngineSystem dash display that connects to the one of the wires to the engine diagnostic connector. But very unfortunately, B&G stopped making those long ago (mine was one of the last .)

Even if you were able to somehow secure one of those discontinued B&GNetEngSys displays, you would want to find out whether our earlier MEFI-(?) ECM outputs that GPH info (it probably does). More data output parameters were added in each later version.

FWIW, here is the Net EngSys manual:
http://www.bandg.com/Documents/supp...ne data display for fuel injected engines.pdf

The only devices that come to mind in terms of accessing that ECM data output is the Rinda Technologies' Marine Diacom SW ( to load on your laptop) , their hand-held TechMate or MercScanTool, or possibly OBD Diagnostic's MEFI Scan and Tune SW. All also require the appropriate cable adapter for your engine. None of those would be a very elegant way to access the data full time, IMO. I have no idea whether it would be possible to convert that early MEFI (non-SAE J1939) data fed to say a cheap laptop stowed aboard into NMEA 2000 data for your MFD, but BillY III might.

When I bought my replacement Crusaders with MPI , I purposely opted for their "Non-Return Fuel System" just to be able to use my existing FloScan 9000's with them . But a few years later I believe FloScan did develop gauge/2 sensor fuel management systems that can handle return-type systems for gas engines as well as certain diesel engines.
 
Sandy I also opted for the non return fuel option on my 8.1L HO Mercs. I use Mercs System View 5000 monitors to display my fuel data.
As far as the older Crusaders I don't have the answer I thought I might be able to point the poster in the right direction.
I agree they have no NMEA2000 or 0183 data output.
I'm thinking Charlie might have the answer?
Bill
 
Thanks for all of the feedback and replies. I heard back from both Crusader and Floscan today and posted their responses below.

From Crusader (Pleasurecraft):

These early MPI engines had the MEFI 3 ECM and were not J1939 compatable. B&G made gauges but discontinued them. Diacom ( www.rinda.com) is what Techs use world wide to read most all Marine engines.

And from Floscan:

Hello and thank you for your interest in FloScan products.

Your request for a NMEA 2000 system to link to your Lowrance HDS7 Touch is possible if you buy the following two kits from us:

N20G-231-21 Cost $850.00 each (you need two) http://www.floscan.com/html/blue/NMEA2000.php

-------------------------------------

So far it looks like it'll be a bit expensive to get the fuel flow information from these engines into a display. The only other option I've come across is to buy floscan sensors with their own displays which cost even more.
 
quote:
Originally posted by lobsta1

quote:
N20G-231-21 Cost $850.00 each (you need two) http://www.floscan.com/html/blue/NMEA2000.php
Click to expand...


Looks like Floscan gave you a generic response as that link is for diesels.
Al

Click to expand...


It's true they are for diesels, but will work on gas engines as well. Someone else used them for the same setup years back on another forum. I'm hesitant to post a link though.
 
I would look at your Lowrance MFD and see what PGN's are used for fuel flow. Then I would go to say Garmin's site and see what NMEA2000 PGN's are used for their gasoline fuel flow units. I'm fairly certain you could use 4 Garmin GFS-10 sensors for less money then Flowscan's option. Garmin's are gas only sensors and they will do either NMEA2000 or CAN Buss.
I started to investigate this for you yesterday but I ran out of time.
Bill
 
Unfortunately, the Garmin system with GFS-10 ,like the Lowrance/Navico fuel management setups, apparently do not allow use with return-line fuel setups :

http://iqc.garmin.com/eCustomer/KODSelfService/request.do?session={8339ff00-aa18-11e3-c7d7-000000000000}&event=1&view()=c%7B1d161090-937b-11df-55a0-000000000000%7D&objectId=&eksObjectId=&objectType=Case&isJumpEnabled=false&isContentJumpEnabled=false&vendorKey=&versionId=105&objectScore=96&from=results

edit: Sorry, I can't get the whole link to stay underlined and active here, so you will get an error if you just click on that. However, if you highlight the whole link , copy and paste to the browser URL address box , the Garmin FAQ answer will appear to show:

"Question: Can I use a GFS 10 if my engine has a return fuel line?

Answer:

The GFS 10 should not be installed on engines that have a return fuel line.

The GFS 10 would be able to calculate the flow rate to the engine, but will not be able to calculate the Total Fuel onboard as it does not have a way to monitor the fuel being returned from the engine to the tank. "
 
Sandy if a 2nd GFS-10 was added to the return line it might be possible (installed backwards) to put the fuel back into the equation.
I'm not saying this can be done but it's worth investigating.
Bill
 
Billy- That's an interesting concept. But I suspect these sensor simply count magnetic or in the case of Floscan , optical, pulses without regard to + or - values . I think that +/- differentiation is done for example on the FloScans by routing the (identical)sensor pulse output to different inputs to the Return-System-compatible gauge where the software there does the adding or subtracting. I think the flow direction arrows may be simply for optimum movement of perhaps cupped paddlewheels, plus some sensors have a debris screen . But this is all just a guess on my part.
 
Thanks for all of the replies and suggestions. I'm still scouring the net for the best solution as well. I checked the Garmin route but I think my return fuel line rules that out. Interesting suggestion about using 2 though. I've investigated the idea a bit further but haven't come up with much so far. I'll definitely post anything I find here. Thanks again!
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sandy

Billy- That's an interesting concept. But I suspect these sensor simply count magnetic or in the case of Floscan , optical, pulses without regard to + or - values . I think that +/- differentiation is done for example on the FloScans by routing the (identical)sensor pulse output to different inputs to the Return-System-compatible gauge where the software there does the adding or subtracting. I think the flow direction arrows may be simply for optimum movement of perhaps cupped paddlewheels, plus some sensors have a debris screen . But this is all just a guess on my part.

Click to expand...

Sandy I never tried running one in reverse. The filters on Garmin's are external so getting it in front of a backwards installed sensor wouldn't be a problem. I don't know if it will work but I still it's worth investigating.
If I had the time I would install an additional (spare) I have in-line backwards and see if it showed -0- fuel usuage when I run one of the engines. If it did then it should work. In my test case the same amount of fuel would flow through both sensors on the engines fuel feed one should offset the other. It's just an idea I had that's all.
If it's as you suggest then my test would validate your thoughts the amount used would show twice the actual amount burned.
I can tell you the GFS-10 sensors do have an installed direction (an arrow) on them.
Bill
 
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