Alternative energy sources

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DeltaDawg

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There was a good article on alternative energy sources in Sunday's San Francisco Chronicle. If you are busy working on your boat or out enjoying your boat you can download and listen to the podcast.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/05/11/BUD010IHPC.DTL

I think ethanol from non food based sources is part of the solution for alternative fuels. I look forward to buying an outboard designed to run on ethanol not E85 ethanol made from corn and blended with gas but ethanol made from cellulosic biofuels. An ethanol outboard should have more power for less weight.

I have been comming back up to speed on solar thermal since working on Solar Two 10 years ago. Solar Two had the mirrors in a circular array on the ground with an elevated boiler in the center. This required each mirror to rotate along 2 axis to follow the sun.

A boater must have come along and while looking at a lighthouse which uses fresnel lens to scatter light realizes put a fresnel lens in the light path and the mirror only needs to rotate in 1 axis, less complexity and less maintenance.

There is a good presentation on today's solar thermal capability at the following URL.
http://ausra.com/pdfs/SolarPACESMills-Morgan.pdf

Today is Bike to work day here in Leftville, enjoy. I have been riding my bike to BART now for 2 years; it changed my life and I am healthier.
 
I'll go along with solar and wind power, but ethanol is the biggest scam out there. We've all heard about the problems that ethanol has been causing boaters but it also does little for the environment. In fact, it may even be worse.

The refining process for ethanol still requires energy (even more than gasoline)which of course means burning fossil fuels. Thus the cost to produce ethanol is more than it would be to refine gas. And we all know who pays for this extra cost in the end.
 
Ethanol in a boat designed for it and with an engine designed to run it would be good. E85 in a boat designed for gasoline and an engine designed to run on gasoline is bad.

The entrepuners think they can make cellulosic ethanol from crop waste and sell it for $1.99/gallon.

This was in today's SF Chronicle business section.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/05/15/BU5F10MENH.DTL&hw=ethanol&sn=001&sc=1000

Even better would be an engine that can run on 2 fuel sources, competition is good for the consumer.
 
quote:
Originally posted by DeltaDawg

Ethanol in a boat designed for it and with an engine designed to run it would be good. E85 in a boat designed for gasoline and an engine designed to run on gasoline is bad.

The entrepuners think they can make cellulosic ethanol from crop waste and sell it for $1.99/gallon.

This was in today's SF Chronicle business section.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/05/15/BU5F10MENH.DTL&hw=ethanol&sn=001&sc=1000

Even better would be an engine that can run on 2 fuel sources, competition is good for the consumer.

Click to expand...
I have a feeling this will take a long time to become a reality if it ever does. Or it could be just another pipedream to suck more VC money from investors which corporate execs will use for their own personal gain instead of actually trying to fulfill any actual goals.

Sorry if I sound cynical but I see this sort of thing happen in the business world all the time.
 
Okay cynics you can keep buying that gas at $4 a gallon for your boats.

When it is available I will buy a new outboard designed to run on cellulosic biofuels at $2 a gallon or I may go to an electric outboard for my next boat, they are getting run times up to 4 hours and recharge times down to 15 minutes with some advanced Li ion batteries.

I won't be ready for an outboard on the next boat I am about to begin building for another 2-3 years anyway.
 
Delta, I wish I could share your optimism and Utopian vision, but then reality kicked me square between the legs.

Even if and that's a big IF they are able to develop a new outboard that runs on a new fuel do you honestly think that they will charge $2 a gallon when they can get more for it? Also, the $2 figure was just thrown out there to grab people's attention and investor's money.

Nobody really knows what the actual price will be and in any case it won't be driven by the cost to produce this new fuel even if it is substantially less. That price will be determined by the corporate execs whose only goal is to maximize profits. If they charged $2 a gallon, they would be leaving money on the table. Corporate greed dictates that this just will not happen. The price will be more like $3.50. But of course that will change too as the price of gas will probably double in the next 2-3 years.
 
UpperDecker, the ethanol engine exists MIT developed it 2 years ago it just needs to be packaged as an outboard.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2006/engine.html

Yes I do think they will price ethanol at $2/gallon because there will be competion and competition is good for the consumer.

I like that new Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 Electric Outboard too for $3K that is equivalent to a 6 hp but I would like more like 50 hp for my next boat. Like I wrote I won't be ready to buy the motor for my next boat for 2-3 years anyway, I have to build the boat first. Delta Dawg
 
quote:
An ethanol outboard should have more power for less weight.

Click to expand...
wrong.
Try reading some science books instead of junk science from the Chronicle.
 
Incidentally, our current high oil prices are the result of market forces that do not include scarcity. Peak oil isn't a factor yet.

I'm pretty skeptical about ethanol fuels. They have a place in the spectrum of alternative energy but remember it takes energy to make ethanol. We don't have enough arable land in the US to grow enough ethanol to replace fossil fuels used in transportation.

The big picture solution for the cleanest energy in the foreseeable future:

1. Nuclear power. Depending on plant size, anywhere from 300 to 1000 new nuclear power plants in the US to replace 50-100% of the electricity we produce with fossil fuels. Shooting for 50% would be a sensible goal for now.

2. Conservation. More efficient use of the energy we have. Rebuild the national power grid.

3. Hydrogen energy cycle. Given enough nuclear and solar electricity we can power most of our transportation by hydrogen fuel cells and rechargeable batteries. Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are a proven technology. They don't pollute. These are standard cars and SUVs you can drive 250 miles between fueling. Fueling with hydrogen doesn't take much more time than fueling with gasoline. We are about ten years away from developing fuel stacks that will be affordable in mass production.

4. Fossil fuels. We have a lot of fossil fuel left, but oil will become more costly to produce (peak oil concept sometime down the road). Fossil fuels contribute to pollution and global warming. In fact, any type of fuel combustion (including ethanol or burning wood) contributes to global environmental problems.

5. Alternative energy.

a. Solar. Solar power plants of all types are very much restricted by large acreage requirements. And they don't produce much power during night or winter weather. Nonetheless, solar (especially solar roof shingles and panels) can contribute at lot of power to the grid without costing us in land use.

b. Hydro-electric. Make use of what we have and keep the wild rivers that still remain. Yank out the old, small and inefficient hydro-electric dams and don't rebuild them.

c. Biofuels from waste conversion do not use land or energy that can be better used to feed the nation and the world.

d. All of the rest: wind, geothermal, tidal, human power (ride a bike or walk), etc.

I like the whole idea of solar power and have a boat that uses 64 watts of thin-film flexible solar panels to meet all our daily power needs at anchor. Keep in mind I equipped this boat to use very little power: including the Purasan Type 1 sanitation system.
 
Bike to work was great yesterday, I got a free water bottle and my 3rd year Bike to Work bag to carry gear to the boat.

I like your ideas Yzer but I see Oil and Nuclear a little different.

Oil is subsidized by the government through a big defense budget to protect the flow of oil. Nuclear is subsidized by the government at the front and tail of the 10,000 year nuclear fuel cycle. We can no longer afford these subsidies the deficit spending is ruining our economy. Nevada doesn't want the nuclear waste from spent fuel and dismanteled reactors stored at Yucca Mountain.

Solar thermal can provide enough power for the contiental US according the the Ausra presentation in my first post. It is cost effective at today's market electric rate. My PG&E bill is at 12 cents per kw-hr due to Enron gaming the California energy market in 2001. Ausra and PG&E are building a 175 mega watt solar thermal plant right now in the Mojave that will have the same capital cost as a natural gas fired power plant.

Ethanol from crop waste and logging that is fermented with enzymes like Genencor and Dupont are working on does not require a lot of energy to produce. There is a lot of logging and crop waste that could be fermented with the right process and turned into fuel. The Genecor and Dupont joint venture plans to open a pilot biorefinery in the US next year.
 
Whatever 'solution' or combination therof will need to be enormously profitable for someone if it's ever to be implemented. No decisions (ok, for the most part, anyway) are made based on what's 'right' or 'best for everyone' - unless someone can make money off of it. Pure and simple.
 
I like yzer's plan too.
I think number 2 on his list is a really imprortant topic and needs discussion. We as boaters, when staying on the hook, have become masters of living with little energy. When I shower on my boat, I use 1 or 2 gallons of water, and the associated energy to heat and move it. When I'm showering at home, even with a quick shower, I probably use 10 times that amount of water and energy. Lights, air conditioning, heat - everything on a boat is watched, or you run out of energy, and we all know thats no fun. Maybe it's because I'm gettin a bit older, feel a bit guilty, or maybe it's finally sinking in, but I know I am starting to pay attention to my personal "carbon footprint", or whatever one calls energy use. It's not really even driven by cost, although thats a nice benefit. I have cut way back on little things - I told my son last night I wasn't going to drive him to Big-5 because I go by it on the way to work and we'll save the gas. I was emptying a extra building last week at work and they guys were tossing un-needed but good things into the dumpster, and I gave them hell for not giving some of those items to someone - at least keep them out of the land fill! I was pissed at the lack of concern for our environment that these "kids" had! Recycle - we as a country probably waste more in terms of food, "new" energy, and "recyclable" energy than most countries use. I give my Wife crap for buying packaged stuff - there was 9 cases of bottled water in the gagage - we don't need bottled water - ever read the stats on how much ol is used making plastic bottles!! We are planting a big garden, ripping out about 1/2 acre of "extra" lawn and replacing it with rock. I was plowing my back field with my old Ford tractor (old=inefficient) and made the decesion to get a couple of goats or sheep to keep it mowed - the carbon footprint of sheep-crap is much better than my old Ford! We started a significant recycle program here at work, and it helps. If we pay attention to the little things, I bet the energy crisis will ease up a lot on its own. I am not a tree hugger by any strech, but there is compromise.

Look at our poor Delta, it's dying because of the same KIND of wastefull attitude. As the polititions go to war over who gets how much of the water and talk about build dams and locks to keep the salt out, I bet that if people were to really cut back on their water usage, most of the problem would go away! Use less water should be the discussion, not a perferal canal and all the problems it will create. The thought process should be - we only have one gallon of water and you each get 20% of that gallon - you have to figure out how to do your job with that amount. The guy who figures out how to strech his allotment by being clever wins - wait, that sounds like running a business, or, like a balanced budget as opposed to just printing more..
Am I ranting now?

One last comment - I am a silicon valley techno-junkie, and I bet within 5 years we have batteries and solar cells that are so good that solar power is significant.

Thanks all, see you on the water!

Jim
 
It will be built in San Joaquin, Ca and power will be sold to PG&E........
 
Flutterby, yes it will be about 1/2 the MW capacity of a natural gas fired power plant but the fuel will be free sun light, orchard prunings and barnyard dressing from the Fresno area.

I saw a video clip last weekend that all of the new vehicles (some even made by GM and Ford) in Brazil are flex fuel - gasoline, ethanol from sugar cane and some even run on natural gas. That's what we need flex fuel cars and ethanol from non food based sources. Brazil learned from the oil embargos in the 1970s.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news...w-from-brazil-biofuels-are-not-a-problem.html

Dawg
 
We will eventually store nuclear waste in Yucca Mountain. Harry Reid won't be in the Senate forever.

BTG
 
Have you guys seen that coal power plant ash pond breech into the Emory and Tennessee rivers in the news? It looks like it killed a lot of fish too. This morning's news showed a utility executive in front of a local crowd at a school gym, lucky he was in the south out west they would have taken him to the woodshed for a mess like that during his watch. I think property values next to coal power plants are in for an even steeper decline. We don't have to worry about ash ponds here because we have mostly natural gas fired power plants. I still think solar thermal power generation is the way for the future.
 
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