Canvas work

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Gnarley

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Hey Everyone!

I am thinking about learning marine canvas from a friend of mine who wants to sell me one of his machines and teach me. After doing my own personal canvas and being able to show it as an example I would take a few customers at a discounted rate, one at a time to create my portfolio and from there fully establish my business and maybe even make it mobile. My questions are what do you think of the idea and do you think its reasonable to consider this?

It seems there is a never ending list of people who need work and they need someone they can trust who is fair and honest.

Please let me know your opinions.

Thanks
 
Gnarely, as a former banker and boater with lots of experience with canvas shops- it is a very tough business. The guys that stay small usually survive but never get rich. The guys that get big really struggle, usually with employees and associated problems, maintaing a very large inventory of supplies, and customer demands and defaults. It is a very tough business.
 
dugsboat, thanks for the info.

I don't plan on hiring anyone, just my wife and I. Any of the shops that are around seem to have more business than they can handle and I seem to always read that someone needs work done and needs references. My friend has been teaching canvas for about 15 years and has done quite well just doing it himself and getting work by word of mouth and from Craigslist. He has said to me for some time now that I should consider doing it for myself as I am so meticulous and honest. He takes his jobs one at a time and sees them through before he starts the next one and always has people willing to wait for him. I see this as a bridge to an earlier retirement if I can stay busy. Starting slowly on my own boat first and then taking on others one at a time. In the future I may move out of California and I can take this skill with me anywhere near water. My idea is if I can make enough at this and cut my overhead by being mobile I may be able to walk away from corporate America sooner and do my own thing! For now a second income from this wouldn't be so bad and I can do it on an agreed schedule that I am in control of.

I forgot to note that I don't plan on keeping an inventory, why invest money on anything that may or may not be sold? All hardware, tubing, attachments, screen, zippers, isinglass and canvas would be ordered per job paid up from by the customer. I am not interested in loaning money or investing my money into someones boat and then trying to collect on it. Labor would be paid in full upon completion and there would be contracts and releases.
 
I don't think it's a bad idea but, speaking as a consumer, I would never pay more than a deposit up front for any kind of work. Too easy to get ripped off. You may be honest and fair, but that's still no guarantee for me that the work will be done to my satisfaction. You may have problems with that business model.
 
Heck, you could probably keep busy just servicing the boats on Bethel Island! We used to have a canvas shop, but it caught fire. The guy didn't have any insurance, so he just walked away and the building owners had to have the damage repaired.

Being mobile makes sense since you have to make frequent trips to the boat anyway [or have the boat brought to your dock----an added business expense]. Some marinas may not allow you to work from their docks or will insist that you be bonded.

With the economy as it is right now, more and more people are choosing to keep the ole tug and not buy a new boat. This would probably work to your advantage. Since you would be starting out slowly, with little financial investment, and keeping your "day job", I think you might be able to make it work! Early retirement might or might not be feasible, but is not your immediate goal, so go for it! You will never know if you can make it work if you don't try it out.
 
Manticore999, should a small business float the cost of materials and hardware until after the job is finished? Ok, so call it a deposit, the deposit covers all the necessary purchases of materials needed to complete the job. Though it may not happen often what prevents a boat owner from taking their boat and leaving before a job was finished or preventing a mobile business from completing the job? A loss of income, job repossession or a flakey owner could leave the business owner holding the bag and then legal action would be necessary to try to collect.

When I had my automotive shop I did purchase all parts up front, however I had the Bureau of Auto Repair on my side and I could file a mechanics lien, and the vehicle was in my possession. Though I never needed to file a mechanics lien I could have locked the vehicle up until it was paid for or I assumed the title after a period of time and sold it through legal action. I don't think this is a possibility with a boat, especially for a mobile business.

I would never ask for payment up front or for my labor, I would only ask for a deposit to cover the costs of materials used. After the job was completed I would then expect payment for the balance due, which would be the labor. I have found that most small businesses require payment up front for parts or other items necessary to complete a task, heck most stores require you to pay up front for special orders, this is no different!

So maybe I am wrong here, but as a small independent mobile business how else would you protect yourself and not front all the costs of supplies?
 
Liz, I plan on getting my business license, Insurance and looking at a bond. I definitely plan to keep a day job for some time, I'm looking at this as a legitimate side business and starting out slowly. I think my friend is more excited about me doing it than I am. He gets paid for miles on any estimates he does, seems fair due to all the traveling required with the cost of gas these days! I think I would also do the same.
 
Good for you Gnarley, I wish you success in learning the canvas trade, getting started and completing your first for pay canvas jobs. Is the machine your friend wants to sell you a walking foot sewing machine? Along with canvas will it sew the heavy sunbrella fabric used in awnings and gazebos? You may want to broaden your porfolio to include gazebos, awnings and banners. I think it is very reasonable to ask for the materials cost up front and labor payment upon project completion. Good luck. Delta Dawg
 
DD, it is an Artisan walking foot with table and other attachments, almost new! I can't wait to do my own canvas!
 
Gnarley,

I hope you weren't taking my comments as a personal thing, 'cause I certainly never meant them that way! It's just that in the Delta, it's really hard to find reliable people when you need work done. Jobs get abandoned half-done, sometimes people never show up, etc. etc. I just bought a new/old boat, and needed tons of work done on it. I paid the yard a 10% deposit and the rest once the work was complete. My engine mechanic is kind of a one-person operations and I gave him $1k down on an estimated $5k bill. Ok, that was 20% but still I wasn't going to go higher than that. In both instances the work was done right, within budget and in a good time frame. NOW I wouldn't hesitate to pay a little more up front because they've both built their reputation in my eyes. I've heard lots of horror stories (and have a few myself), but found good people this time.

I used to be a professional photographer - weddings, portraits, etc. and I always demanded a deposit, but sometimes I bought film and other stuff in excess of the deposit. It was a cost of doing business. I was lucky and never got screwed, but it was always a danger.

Now, all that said - I really do wish you well! I hope you're more successful than you ever thought possible. Honest, fair, competant repair-people are hard to come-by around here and it sounds like you have the potential to make a good go of it.

Best of luck - and heaven knows I'll need some canvas work at some point in the near future! Seems I needed everything else ....
 
manticore999, no worries! Don't you have a 33' Carver? I have been around the block a few times and have learned customer service is paramount to succeeding in business! From restoring antique Concours cars shown at Pebble Beach and restoring Vintage race cars and being a race team manager as well as being a factory trained Jag tech I have learned how to pay attention to details and listen to what is needed. It is much harder to gain positive feedback passed by word of mouth than negative. Even I know and will say more about something I am dissatisfied with, it's just human nature. It's funny after many years of being in so many areas of auto repair I never dreamed I'd learn how to sew, and now with a boat I feel I'd like to learn this skill and I can also earn an income from it. I feel as a member of the boating community and a member of a Yacht Club I have integrity and my good name. By taking money for service rendered and not performing as expected I have a lot to loose in the eyes of my peers, that in itself is a motivating factor to stay on the up and up!
 
Best of luck gnarly! Be sure to keep us informed on your progress.......
 
My wife and I made the canvas enclosures on our first two cruisers. The first was a 25' Stephens (old wooden hull) and the second was a 36' Carver.

The first canvas we did on a Sears Kenmore home sewing machine. Almost killed it. For the Carver we bought a commercial Consew with walking foot.

Having the machine was great but what we really needed was space. What works great is if the machine is mounted in the middle of a large table so the entire canvas can lay flay going into and coming out of the machine, otherwise the bulk of fabric pulls terribly.

The biggest problem we had was estimating the amount of stretch the canvas would have. A panel of canvas stretches a lot more than the same area with a vinyl window in it. We worked from home and would bring works in progress to the boat, which was a slow and tedious process. Being able to work within a stones throw of the boat would have accelerated the project a lot!

The other tool that really helped us out was the snap tool. Well worth the money. And the snaps are a fraction of the price when bought in bulk!

Since we finished our canvas we have done a few projects for friends and my wife occasionally considers tackling a bigger job for pay, but then I remind her of all the frustrating moments and it passes...

Oh, and making the pipe frames was a non-trivial job as well......

Good luck!

Rod
 
Grarley,

You will do great - I've seen your work on your own boat, and you do it right! You certainly understand business, people, and work ethic and that is really what it takes. You saw the last guy that did my headliner - he never finished - and I never paid him the balance and maybe you will finish his job!
I trust you - you can do my boat, but I need to sort out $$ as this retirement thing gives me so much more time to spend money - I need to start planning better! What do they call it - a budget??

Stop by my boat when you get a chance.
Jim
 
You can put me on your list of potential customers if you can fabricate screens for our boat. eg, summer panels. It would pay well as our boat is a Sea Ray 480 Sedan Bridge and the advertising and exposure would be great, as we are benevolent members of the unpopular Sea Ray Club.

Bill
 
Bill,
Funny how you make the comment about the SR club - I tend to be really open minded, but it is amazing how many people feel that the club is arrogant. They are really nice boats and it is a shame the club has that attitude. Kind of like the Hells Angels - I have met many over the years, and as individuals, they are really nice, but when they get in the group, they become totally different! It is good to hear a member amke fun of it! A 480 - what a nice ride.

Jim
 
General canvas question. I have always thought a good way to do canvas would be to put screen into the canvas permanently, with a good, industrial velcro on the inside seams. The windows could be cut to size and the mating velcro either sewed or just stuck to the edges. They could just be stuck in when needed, or peeled off when not. Seems simple - has anyone ever seen this done?

Jim
 
quote:
Originally posted by Comfortably Numb

General canvas question. I have always thought a good way to do canvas would be to put screen into the canvas permanently, with a good, industrial velcro on the inside seams. The windows could be cut to size and the mating velcro either sewed or just stuck to the edges. They could just be stuck in when needed, or peeled off when not. Seems simple - has anyone ever seen this done?

Jim

Click to expand...
Never seen it but it sounds like a great idea. Because the canvas and the isenglass change shape over time making it impossible to zipper the panels back up.
 
I saw that about 20 yrs ago in a very nice custom canvas job by a guy in Mountain View, who is long gone...... The guy kept his boat at Bethel Island and had to tow his boat to Mtn View to get the work done. He had isinglass, screens and canvas panel inserts. But I do think all of the panels zipped into place. Velcro might not hold well enough in very windy conditions, etc.

upperdeck---with one type or another [any combo] always zipped into place, the distortion of which you refer can be avoided. Leaving sections open for several weeks at a time is the cause of the distortion. Always find a way to close up those zippers before leaving the boat or the problem gets worse over time. Once it gets started, it is difficult to stop.
 
Numb:

We have yet to cruise with them but have met a dozen of them individually, mostly fellow berthers at Willowberm (although you have many at Ox Bow). They have very talented people that construct very creative raft-up scenarios.

We are threatening to cruise to BI with them for Halloween and will commit by the weekend, as it is a good venue to get our feet wet. Dave Witte (Absoloot on this venue0 and I have discussed our situation on several occasions.

Bill
 
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