Confused about boat head

T

Thompson gunr

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I went to look at a houseboat I am thinking about buying last week. Everything went well but.... The owner said "the head has no holding tank. It pumps straight overboard. This is allowed on the river on a boat of this age." My BS light was screaming at me! I could have sworn that ALL boats used on US national water MUST have a holding tank. Am I right? If I get boarded and they see I have no holding tank, how much trouble would I be in? What is the difficulty in installing a holding tank? Thanks, I await your expert answers.
 
Almost certainly covered by State law. YMMV.

...but I doubt that a straight overboard system is legal.
 
Ohio river. Huge fines I would imagine? Impound the boat? If the boat is hauled I heard that it can not be re-launched without having the proper sanitation gear. Is this true? Just trying to figure out what I am looking at before jumping. This is on a 45' houseboat. Having never before installed a holding tank system, how difficult would this be? Thanks
 
I think Yzer posted a link to the EPA for NDZ's and there is no direct discharge allowed in Ohio. Are you sure the head didn't have a treatment system? You need to be 3 miles off the NJ shore to discharge your holding tank or for the head to just dump it's contents. Age has nothing to do with the discharge of untreated waste from boats especially on inland waterways and lakes. The good news is if the boat is what you want it shouldn't be to hard to install a holding tank.
Bill
 
Gang there are a mess of boats out there that violate the rules. Look before you purchase.
 
Link to EPA map of Ohio No Discharge Zones. This is Federal Law.

And the Ohio rules:

Ohio River

An MSD (Marine Sanitation Device) is a special kind of toilet for boats. Toilets that discharge raw sewage directly over the side are illegal in state as well as federal waters.

Type III MSDs are certified to a no-discharge standard. This is the only type that is allowed on Ohio's waters. Type III devices include recirculating and incinerating MSDs and holding tanks. Holding tanks are probably the most common kind of Type III MSD found on recreational boats. Sewage is stored in the holding tank until it can be pumped out to a reception facility on shore. Reception facilities (sometimes called pump out stations) are required by Coast Guard regulations. Their availability at marinas or other locations is largely a function of local boater demand. Most cruising guides and boating almanacs list the availability of pump out stations.

--

--> boatbum

There certainly are. Don't swim in the marina...
 
The OP asked if it was legal for a marine toilet to dump directly overboard into a US river. The answer is simple.

No, it is not legal to have a marine toilet dump untreated sewage into a river, stream, pond or lake anywhere in the US. This prohibition has been in effect for many years and there is no exception for boats based upon build date. Old boats are not grandfathered away from this law.

I looked into the issue of MSD Types I and II in Ohio and found conflicting information. MSDs Types I and II discharge treated sewage and Type III is the holding tank system. Types I and II do not necessarily require any holding tank.

It's my understanding that the basic Federal EPA law prohibits MSDs I and II from No Discharge Zones (NDZs), any closed bodies of water (ponds, reservoirs and lakes including the Great Lakes) and the rivers and streams that empty into them and non-navigable streams and rivers. Navigable rivers may be prohibited if they are blocked by dams.

There is conflicting info on the internet about current Ohio laws concerning Type I and II MSDs. This contradicts the info on Bill's link, but it could be that one or both of our links are outdated or incorrect. Keep in mind that navigable rivers (like the Ohio) are under Federal juristiction while a lake in Ohio is well.. an Ohio lake.

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/watercraft/opsguide/ohiovr2/tabid/2752/Default.aspx

I know you didn't ask about Type I and II MSDs in Ohio, but I'd advise you (and anyone else considering use of Type I or II MSDs) to contact local agencies and Federal EPA to determine what law is current in your state. Regulations including NDZ are sometimes specific to particular boat size and type, regions, states, and bodies of water.

Here is the Federal EPA NDZ site which (bless them) may be outdated. It was last updated on February 4th, 2008.

http://www.epa.gov/owow/oceans/regulatory/vessel_sewage/vsdnozone.html

Maybe we will hear from some Ohio boaters with the first-hand info on this. I'll bet Vic can answer this one for you tomorrow.

Are MSD Type III holding tank systems difficult to install? Not really, depending on the boat and if you have room for one. I put a small tank system on our old boat and used it for a few years before upgrading to a Type I system.
 
Bad News: It is absolutely positively illegal to dump raw sewage in ANY river, lake, pond, stream, brook or rill in the US.

Good News: Installing a holding tank in a house boat should not be a very complicated or expensive project. Even if a Type I or II system may not necessarily require a holding tank why not put one in anyway. Sewage, treated or not, is damaging to the environment and a holding tank is just not that expensive to install.

If you like the boat, buy it and install a holding tank and enjoy yourself. Those down stream from you will appreciate it. :)

Bob
 
quote:
Originally posted by rnbenton

Bad News: It is absolutely positively illegal to dump raw sewage in ANY river, lake, pond, stream, brook or rill in the US.
Click to expand...
Correct.

quote:
Good News: Installing a holding tank in a house boat should not be a very complicated or expensive project.
Click to expand...

If you know how or are willing to pay someone who does, and there is room for a holding tank.

quote:
. Sewage, treated or not, is damaging to the environment ..................
Click to expand...

Many cities and towns discharge "treated" sewage back into the environment including rivers where the downstream cities and towns get their drinking water.

Some of the marine treatment systems available for recreational boats tread sewage to a higher standard than some of these towns and cities.

To the OP:
If you like the boat, buy it and correct the problem before you use it. You should be able to negotiate a lower price based on the cost of bringing the boat into compliance.

If you want to use the boat before you get it fixed, lock the door to the head or close the discharge seacock and wire it closed.
 
Ron I am with you on the last part of this post I believe the PuraSan may be 1000 times cleaner than the standard for City or Municiple discharge. Run off from farms and streets is worse than properly treated waste. Straight or direct discharge in brackish or freshwater non tidal areas is extremely disgusting.
Bill
 
Been thinking about those treatment systems and regardless of the treatment specs I wouldn’t want to swim near them.
 
quote:
Originally posted by pdecat

Been thinking about those treatment systems and regardless of the treatment specs I wouldn’t want to swim near them.

Click to expand...

Good idea, if you are swimming within a few feet of the discharge through hull.

The discharge from a Type I MSD contains no visible solids: It's macerated to the microscopic level and is completely disinfected but the discharge fluid looks cloudy as soon as it leaves the through hull. Once it hits the water the discharge is instantly diluted to the order of millions and them billions to one. It's gone within seconds. The discharge of the chemical disinfectant Type I like the Purasan also contains a lot of chlorine-type chemical. You don't want to have your face in front of the discharge through-hull when that comes through.

A little common sense and courtesy goes a long way. The Raritan Type I systems like Electroscan and Purasan discharge only when the head is flushed. We have used Purasan with an underwater through hull for several years and just don't discharge when swimmers are within 75 or 100 feet of the boat. As it happens, we also boat in water that has considerable current. We are being way too cautious, but that's the way we are.

The best common sense advice: don't swim right along the hull of any boat you don't know. The chances that they are using a Y-valve to bypass the holding tank and flush crap directly overboard and are much better than the chances of them having a Type I system aboard.
 
quote:
Originally posted by pdecat

Been thinking about those treatment systems and regardless of the treatment specs I wouldn’t want to swim near them.
Click to expand...

Swiming anywhere but in your own pool has its risks. I have been swimming and had discarded cigarettes from nearby boats float by. How about dead animals and fish?

You don't know what other people nearby in the water are doing. Ever see anyone get out of the water to use the bathroom?

This morning I was swimming in the pool at the gym. A woman came in and put her baby in the pool. I doubt he/she was pottie trained.
 
I think some folks go a little bit "overboard" when it comes to sanitation, and swimming in the "sea". Let's face it: FISH do a lot of things in the water...

The problem is not an occasional, localized thing, but from the overall perspective. Having a city dump raw sewerage in a stream is a bad plan, but one fisherman "returning the beer to the sea" will have very little effect on anything. It is a question of degree.

---

Then there is the legal issue. The laws are attempts by politicians, and political organizations to both find a loophole they can exploit as well as garner additional votes. Oh, yeah, and while they are at it, do something useful. That means that, while the laws might accomplish something useful, they are usually a "near miss" king of thing, and lack sound logic and/or efficiency. Nevertheless, the sanitation at sea ( more particularly, sanitation on inland waters ) laws serve a useful purpose in avoiding high concentrations of effluent contaminating areas of our waterways.

They also usually carry penalties that any individual would be well advised to avoid! Add to that the stigma of being the guy in the police report cited for, ahem, illegal dumping.

Which brings us back to: It is a good plan to have a holding tank on your vessel's head. This is desirable from a legal, financial and social viewpoints. Treatment systems, while they are quite likely to be an excellent idea, do not have the respect of the general public and I suspect that they will have difficulty receiving wide ( legal ) acceptance. ( I could be wrong here, but the public tends to dislike technical solutions when there is a low-tech solution available )
 
In the case of the Raritan Type I MSDs, the higher tech solution is also a better solution.

Our Purasan system doesn't stink. Ever. The hose runs are so short on our installlation that waste never sits in the system for long. Before we get to the slip I just run three clear water flush cycles and the entire system is waste free. I had a left over holding tank vent filter when I installed the Purasan and reused that for the vented loop. Again, that's kind of overkill but I don't even get stink from the vented loop. Plus, I don't need a holding tank so I never have to do pumpouts.

The general public doesn't know that coliform bacteria counts from municipal sewage treatment plants are allowed to be higher than that for the Type I MSDs. That water gets dumped right into the rivers. Raw sewage dumps from treatment plants happen all the time. So does seepage from leach line systems near the water. The general public doesn't know that birds and marine mammals put many times more coliform bacteria into the water than boats ever did when they dumped sewage directly into the water. They don't see this, so they don't think about it.

As far as health and esthetic concerns go I'd rather not spend my recreational time in a closed area with a plastic tank full of sewage. I don't want one in my house either. Type I is legal in my area so I'm very happy to make that choice.

A Purasan installation will not cost a DIY boater much more than a holding tank system.
 
yzer, the case can be made FOR proper treatment systems. The issue is not whether is is good ( it is ), but what the public perception of it is. I feel it is possible that such systems will be banned when it is not appropriate due to the lack of good info on the part of lawmakers. They have already refused to accept these systems in places where they are appropriate.

So far, it is not an issue for me. I am typically 3+ mi offshore, in Federal Waters on virtually every trip. Obviously, that is not the case for most boaters.

Use whatever system makes you most comfortable, and if it is a treatment system, I hope it remains legal for you to use.
 
That is why I like the Hold-N-Treat system. You flush all day and night long into your holding tank. Then when you are not in a NDZ or even 3 miles off the effluent is much cleaner than the 3 mile raw dump. I have my boat plumbed 2 ways the head goes to the tank, when I am in the correct areas I let the H-N-T control the PuraSan or at the marina I call for the pump out boat. It is impossible for me to direct discharge from my holding tank. Yzer my effluent exits out the bottom of the boat all I can see when leaning over the side (not moving ) is clear water I see no cloud. So I assume by the time it moves 7.5" horizontally it has already diluted itself. I have yet to ever see anything other than what looks like movement of water from under the hull. Only in the very beginning when I had too much water entering the sanitization canistor could I smell a trace of chlorine type smell. But that was easily fixed by properly adjusting the incoming water clip.
Bill
 
I only seen the discharge from the underwater through hull once and that was because I had someone else flushing the head while I was leaning over the side looking for it.
 
The Federal Law went into effect on March 30, 1980, outlawing the discharge of RAW sewage into the water ANYWHERE in the United States, inside the 3 mile limit. That includes all lakes, rivers and streams. $2,000.00 federal fine if you get caught.

Outside the 3 mile limit, you may legally discharge raw toilet waste or the contents of a holding tank out into the water.

Treatment systems are divided into three types:

Type I marine sanitation systems may be used on boats up to and including 65 feet LOA. If your boat is over 65 feet LOA, it requires a Type II system. A Type III system (holding tank, incinerating head, Porta-Potty, composting head, recirculating head) is acceptable for use on all boats, regardless of size. The key there, is that a Type III doesn't allow overboard discharge of any toilet waste (supposedly). The Type I and Type II systems treat the effluent to predetermined levels, and must be tested and certified by the US Coast Guard before they may be used on boats in the U.S.

The definition of No Discharge Zones tends to confuse a lot of people. A No Discharge Zone (NDZ) is an area inside the 3 mile limit, where toilet waste may not be discharged into the water regardless of whether it has been treated by a certified treatment system or not.

These areas are listed on the EPA website, and are declared by the EPA, after an area has submitted an application, has proven that the designation is an environmental necessity in that particular area, and they must also prove that there are a sufficient number of operable pumpout stations in the given area to accomodate the number of boats in the area.

After investigation, the EPA may then approve the area as a NDZ, or may hand the ball off to the state, and allow them to do it. Here's the list of current NDZ's, by state, from the EPA website:

http://www.epa.gov/owow/oceans/regulatory/vessel_sewage/vsdnozone.html

Keep in mind that if your state isn't listed, it doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't any NDZ's in the state. It means that there are no specifically named areas in that state. Lakes and rivers that can't be navigated all the way out to the ocean are automatically NDZ's, by definition.

As an example, Pennsylvania isn't on the list but Raystown Lake, near Altoona, is a NDZ, because you can't navigate from there, out to the ocean. But the Ohio River is not a NDZ, because it can be navigated all the way down to the Gulf of Mexico.
 
quote:
Originally posted by rnbenton

...Sewage, treated or not, is damaging to the environment...

Click to expand...


Care to back that ignorant statement up?
 
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