Converting and Alpha1 Gen 1 to Gen II

quote:
Originally posted by Msibley

Yes, we do sell drives.

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Msbiley,
Can you tell me how much the Bravo inner and outer gimbal are and a separate price for the Bravo 3 complete upper and lower assembly?
I can not seem to find them listed as such on the site. YOu can PM me if you like.
 
quote:
Originally posted by keithheikkinen

dapolice,

Good information you have and seem to have a good handle on this already, so I'm certain I'm of little help here, but will offer what I can. I decided to simply extend the harness to have the ECM in the cuddy so it's out of harms way. Don't really need to get to it much.

Had not considered the O2 simulator and not at all sure how that works. Any idea how it "tells" the ECM what to do if not actually in the exhaust stream? How would the wide band change things, exactly? Very interested in this as it's the one area where I have not been able to find a resourse able to answer this.

Holley said they did not have a specific "marine" distributor, or would have gone that way, or at least not the one that works with the C-950 I have.

Although may be a little late, very intrigued with the "returnless" fuel pump. have not found that yet, but very interested anyway. You have a source or part number?

The relay you show is close, but looks a little different but same idea. I think it will work fine. I'm thinking through a fail safe also for the fuel system that if the engine quits, and ignition is still on the fuel pump will turn off. Just in case there was a leak that developed I would not just pump fuel into the bilge. Not nearly the issue on a car as a boat. The ECM has several wild card outputs I should be able to train to do this??

Bob, what are you talking about??

Charlie, I sent you a PM (or about to)

Thanks all,
Keith

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Keith the following is from Wikipedia and does a decent job of explaining wide band O2 sensors

Wideband zirconia sensor

"A variation on the zirconia sensor, called the 'wideband' sensor, was introduced by Robert Bosch in 1994 but is (as of 2006) used in only a few vehicles. It is based on a planar zirconia element, but also incorporates an electrochemical gas pump. An electronic circuit containing a feedback loop controls the gas pump current to keep the output of the electrochemical cell constant, so that the pump current directly indicates the oxygen content of the exhaust gas. This sensor eliminates the lean-rich cycling inherent in narrow-band sensors, allowing the control unit to adjust the fuel delivery and ignition timing of the engine much more rapidly. In the automotive industry this sensor is also called a UEGO (for Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen) sensor. UEGO sensors are also commonly used in aftermarket dyno tuning and high-performance driver air-fuel display equipment. The wideband zirconia sensor is used in stratified fuel injection systems, and can now also be used in diesel engines to satisfy the forthcoming EURO and ULEV emission limits."

It does a better job of explaining it than I could sit here and type out. Basically it allows for a more rapid adjustment by the computer, and can increase fuel economy and instant throttle response. It is afaster and a more accurate way of measuring the exhaust gases.

Keith, I did a search on Jegs and found 3 pages of the marine distributors. Granted not all of them are for your application, but Mallory and MSD make them and I know they make adapter harnesses to adapt your Holley 950 to the distributor. You may need to call Jegs to get the right part.

I am in no way promoting Jegs. I do alot of business with Summit and other independent vendors out there. They just has a good website with lots of stuff "online".

You might look at the Mallory #650-YLU554CV.
There are other out ther as well.

Hope that helps.
 
Ah, very good. I've identified a number of other posts in your forum that also violate this policy on naming vendors that sell product in direct competition with boatfix.com. I wonder why you are no as vigorously editing those posts as well?

FYI, here are a few of them, so you can take care of them as you took care of this post:

http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=116485 (posts #5 and #7)
http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=116537 (post #2)
http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=96866 (post #5)
http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=116429 (post #6 - he even included a link!!!)

I'm sure there's more. If you don't have the time to edit all these posts, I'd be glad to become a co-moderator and police the forum for you!

Love,
 
Thank you, Bob, I'll deal with it. Of late, I can't devote the kind of time I used to simply because I'm working!
 
quote:
Originally posted by blouderback

Ah, very good. I've identified a number of other posts in your forum that also violate this policy on naming vendors that sell product in direct competition with boatfix.com. I wonder why you are no as vigorously editing those posts as well?

FYI, here are a few of them, so you can take care of them as you took care of this post:

http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=116485 (posts #5 and #7)
http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=116537 (post #2)
http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=96866 (post #5)
http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=116429 (post #6 - he even included a link!!!)

I'm sure there's more. If you don't have the time to edit all these posts, I'd be glad to become a co-moderator and police the forum for you!

Love,

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Bob,
I think we are way off track now. I believe this is better handled through PM between you and Msbiley, please.
Thanks for your input on the drive conversion though.
 
da...get used to it. Derailments are frequent around here. Bob is a primary reason that PFD's were invented.
 
James,
It's gonna floor you when you find out how much a complete Bravo transom assembly/bell housing/coupler with tilt/trim and rams is going to cost. Go to Ebay or maybe Craigs list.

What I'm curious about is the O2 sensor. The BIG difference between car and boat is the water cooled exhaust system. All modern marine engines have a certain amount of valve overlap where the intake valves are opening when the exhaust valves are still closing. During idle and low speeds there is enuff lag between exhaust pulses to create a suction that pulls water from the where the exhaust and water mix. This is not the same thing that most people think happens...that water runs up the exhaust pipes from outside the boat. It may or may not be much but it has been explained to me that any water would render the sensor inoperable. I thought of making a 1" thick exhaust spacer between the head and ex manifold but my cam pulls way too much salt water back into the ex manifolds. I'm in the process of making a complete SS exhaust/muffler system that doesn't mix the water and exhaust until just before it goes out the transom about 22" from the top of the ex manifolds.
 
quote:
Originally posted by jtybt15

James,
It's gonna floor you when you find out how much a complete Bravo transom assembly/bell housing/coupler with tilt/trim and rams is going to cost. Go to Ebay or maybe Craigs list.

What I'm curious about is the O2 sensor. The BIG difference between car and boat is the water cooled exhaust system. All modern marine engines have a certain amount of valve overlap where the intake valves are opening when the exhaust valves are still closing. During idle and low speeds there is enuff lag between exhaust pulses to create a suction that pulls water from the where the exhaust and water mix. This is not the same thing that most people think happens...that water runs up the exhaust pipes from outside the boat. It may or may not be much but it has been explained to me that any water would render the sensor inoperable. I thought of making a 1" thick exhaust spacer between the head and ex manifold but my cam pulls way too much salt water back into the ex manifolds. I'm in the process of making a complete SS exhaust/muffler system that doesn't mix the water and exhaust until just before it goes out the transom about 22" from the top of the ex manifolds.

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Charlie you can use the simulators as well.
Do NOT put your O2 sensor on one bank of exhaust. You really need to have one in the exhaust pipe AFTER all the individual cylinders have merged into one pipe. BY placing it close to the head it does not get an accurate reading from ALL the exhaust gasses just those from that one cylinder. If your pipes do not merge left and right headers into one, then at least put it downstream of the header flange after all the tubes on that cylinder bank have merged.

I am fully aware of the Bravo Units, but as I said I like to do it right the first time. I want to make this as reliable as I can possibly make it from the start. I know with every boat I have ever had or my family has had, they are high maintenance, but I want to avoid the frequent catastrophic failures. I am going to have to buy it in two stages. The gimbal/ transom parts and then the lower leg.

Do you all think I am better of with the 2.0 or 2.2 gear ratio?
 
What about the water messing with the sensors?

To tell you the truth, You may be better off in the long run if you bought a boat with a bravo III already on it. Just the Bravo components will probably exceed 10k alone. It's a buyers market.

Your best bet on the right gear ratio and drive would be to check what a newer version of your boat has.
 
quote:
Originally posted by jtybt15

What about the water messing with the sensors?

To tell you the truth, You may be better off in the long run if you bought a boat with a bravo III already on it. Just the Bravo components will probably exceed 10k alone. It's a buyers market.

Your best bet on the right gear ratio and drive would be to check what a newer version of your boat has.

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Are you getting that much water in there?
The exhaust (while Running) should keep the water out. When at rest the exhaust should be higher than the water level.

Sounds like the simulators are your better option.
 
Most marine systems mix the exhaust with the raw water at the end of the riser which is about 1' past the exhaust manifolds. Valve overlap will suck water back into the risers and manifolds at low engine speeds.

Even if you get the most minimal amount of water sucked back there is always the danger of water leaking into the manifolds at the manifold/riser joint.

The more you learn about marine systems, the more you'll understand how much water is working against ALL aspects of boating. The O2 sensor is the stumbling block of the marine fuel injection system.

From what Keith tells me, the holley system is programable enuff to cover most conditions. Boats have a very predictable load placed on the engine. Personally I think a vacuum sensor could take the place of a TPS AND mass air flow sensor.

I think Keith is on the last part of engine assembly and starting mounting the FI system. We should get some good info with pix as he puts things together.
 
I will keep you folks posted as I figure this out.
DA, Charlie is correct about an O2 sensor downstream anywhere on a boat in that it will get wet and a wet O2 sensor is useless and will simply provide the ECM erroneous information. My research on the O2 simulator seems to be that it is a device that mimics the random low voltage inputs an ECM would typically see at the catastrophic converter. People that are racing cars or changing out exhaust to eliminate the CC use these for that purpose to avoid the dreaded CEL. I'm not sure this would help on the further upstream O2 though. That is the one that detects the lean/rich mixture and makes the changes. I have given a lot of thought to this over the months and see no practical way to avoid the fact that you really can't use an O2 on a boat. I love to hear if someone has figured this out, but even despite many hours of searching on the net have never found where anyone has pulled this off.

I checked on the fuel pump returnless and the devices required to do this are typically in the tank itself. Evidently the engine ECM is feeding information to the tank regulator about throttle state and the exact correct amount of fuel/ pressure is applied to maintain the pressure required at the rails. In my case, that would be far more work than the return line, so not sure that will happen....for me.

I've given minimal thought to date to the computer part of this, but expect I can eventaully figure out maps that will work fine for me. I expect that someone racing or super high performance would have to tweak this like crazy to get everything to work the way they need it (picture monkey with 5 gallon bucket being poured into the carb throat) which is either off, or balls to the wall. That will not be the case with me.

I'll keep you posted with my lessons learned as experience tells me there will be many.
 
The O2 sensor provides feedback to the ECU when the ECU goes into closed loop operation. With a typical aftermarket 'Marine' Fuel Injection system, some operate in strictly open loop. Open loop refers to basically predetermined fuel and spark curves loaded in the ECU. I did check the directions on your Holley Kit and the manifold can be tapped so the O2 sensor mounts directly in the exhaust stream. If water touches the sensor, it's ruined.

Doug
 
Doug,

I've read through the instructions several times and found nothing about what you mention about tapping the manifold? Where did you find that?
 
Yeah, there's no practical way to tap into a stock merc type manifold. The only place that is not water jacketed is the short section between the head and the body if the manifold. As mentioned, I contemplated making 1" spacers between the head and manifold to mount sensors at each exhaust port. Just the threat of water made even that impractical.
 
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