Ethanol II

O

OLD HOUSEBOATER

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Ok, lets ask these questions.

Do you have ethanol free fuel available in your boating area? Do you use it? If so where do you get it (be specific). How much is it per gallon.

I am 71 years old and have worked on boats since I was 14.

History:

Forever to date - Stale gas causes varnish build up in fuel system components. Resulting in poor running conditions, and over time, requiring servicing of fuel system components due to engine performance issues.

Forever to date - Moisture building up in bottom of fuel tanks, due to lack of use and/or leaks from top of tank and NOT being sucked off periodically. This results in rapid/immediate shut down of engines due to water being picked up when angle of boat changes and water/crap on the bottom of tank is picked up when pickup tube is submerged in water.

Introduction of ethanol based fuels - This fuel accented the problems of the above. The solvent action loosened and dissolved the crap that existed and built up over the years and plugged up a lot of fuel systems. This was the first shot. The second was that it gradually attacked some fuel system soft components causing replacement issues. A few people with fiberglass fuel tanks were also affected. The people with the "dock Queens" and those that had crap and water in their tanks, to begin with, were the first and hardest hit.

The average boater that used his/her boat a lot, really didn't have problems. On older boats, as time went on, filters became plugged more often due to fuel line deterioration. On newer boats problems never occurred.

Today - Most boaters are aware of the fact that watercraft fuel systems require more maintenance than their cars and trucks. Today the problems are mostly behind us. If Fastguy91, with the 1986 boat, cleans his system and replaces the soft lines he won't have any problems.

The best preventive maintenance is to use the boat often, try to turn over your fuel at least every 4 months minimum, maintain your fuel filters. A water separator is a good idea. IMHO it's better to underfill your tanks and suck out the bottom every 2 years than to fill to the top and let the fuel get old.

The truth is - once your system is clean the ethanol fuels actually help to keep it clean. In a boat that is used regularly the varnishing problems of the past are mostly gone. For the modern fuel injected engines the ethanol fuel is actually a benefit.

This fuel is real, get used to it. If you have pure gas available now, plan on it going away in the near future.

Your thoughts.
 
They might keep it clean, but the problem arises getting to that point. The real problem is how it reacts with water in the tank. I've never suspected any water in my tanks, so maybe that's why i've not had a problem so far. The other problem is coming later when the ethanol/water mixture starts to corrode aluminum tanks out from the inside.
 
Once you get past the varnish, dissolving fiberglass fuel tanks, deteriorating rubber gaskets/hoses, higher cost and lower energy produced on combustion. . . it's great.
 
Last year, and years prior, my marina had ethanol free gas. Since I don't burn much gas, I used to bring 5 to 10 gallons of ethanol free gas with me. My service territory has changed so I no longer drive by the gas station that had pure gas. Their price of ethanol free gas was 10 cents more than other gas stations. The 10 cents per gallon more equates to roughly paying 3% more. Figuring that E10 provides about 3% lower mpg, the ethanol free gas really didn't cost anymore when fuel milage is figured in.
It looks like this will be my first year of E10 gas. Getting pure gas in PA is getting harder to find.
 
I'm on Lake St. Clair and most marinas here are still ethanol free (at least that is what they advertise). The owner of the gas dock at my marina said he will keep ethanol free gas as long as he is able to get it. I have not purchased gas this year but I think it's $4.75 - $5 a gallon.

My boats a 98 and does not get a lot of use so I'm a little worried what may happen when they finally cannot get ethanol free gas anymore.
 
Greg

Your pickup tube is about one inch off the bottom of your tank. Water has a tendency to build up in the bottom of the tank over time. Ethanol may or may not increase this tendency. This water along with other nasties is what causes tanks to develop leaks. I have ALWAYS sucked off the bottom of my tanks every 2 years. For 2 tanks it's less than an hours work if you have access thru the top of the tank. A hand pump and a piece of tubing is less than $25 bucks.

Most people, with smaller boats, don't have problems because an active ride keeps everything stirred up and don't accumulate water. Those of us that operate larger and smooth riding boats, that sit at the dock a lot, are the group that accumulates water.
 
There is one marina that advertizes ethanol free gas in Hollywood. Not really very convenient for me. Way out of the way and at least 75 cents to 1 dollar more per gallon than I can get it delivered by fuel truck. Florida mandates 10% ethanol so I would really question if it is what they are claiming.
Most states do not allow MBTE in the gasoline sold in that state. I kind of wonder what the so called ethanol free gas is using to keep the octane at the required levels. Most states have or will mandate 10 percent ethanol so I agree you might as well get use to it. Also what will switching back and forth if you can get ethanol free do or what effects will it have?
 
As far as I know, and I am sure others can correct me on this, but all Premium grade fuel north of the U.S. border, and we only have the 3 grades, is ethanol free... at the car pump it runs $1.43 a litre...(3.80 litres per U.S. gallon I think) I can only imagine what it would cost dockside but in the past it was about 0.80 more per litre? Again, I am sure others can correct me on this one. I have only run premium in all my motor equipment since ethanol introduced, pricey, a bit but have had zero issues with anything... the car gets the cheap stuff thanks to modern CPU...Graeme
 
Bald Ridge on Lake Lanier has Ethanol free fuel.
 
Here in the midwest, we have been using 10% ethanol for as long as I can remember. Haven't had or seen anyone with any issues. And some of these boats sit a lot -- like all season for multiple seasons.
 
What about ethanol being at least ten percent less effecient than non ethanol gas and it takes more energy to make a gallon of ethanol then you get out of it.
What about food prices going up because food is being used for ethanol? What about the short amount of time before ethanol breaks down?
Not to mention it destroys fiberglass tanks that would otherwise have lasted for the life of the boat.
 
IF in fact, we could depend on the fuel distributors to mix the E-10 accurately, then most of the above would be true, once the system is cleaned you may not have further problems. BUT, oil companies to not want E-10 flowing through their lines because it is corrosive (I bet to aluminum as well). So it's mixed at the distribution point (tanker) and there have been reports that what is labeled E-10 is closer to E-20 or higher. That increases the risk of phase separation, which allows the water to drop out of the fuel mix. I haven't had huge problems with E-10 and have been trying to not let the gas sit as much as possible but here with only a 6 month season it's hard....
 
The effect that David mentiuons, increasing cost of agricultural products, is possibly the single biggest reason to not like ethenol. We've promoted a new competition between food and energy that we sure did not need. Everyone wants and is willing to pay for the same bushel of corn. I suspect the farmers enjoy the new way of doing business.
 
Let your boat sit for a year with E-10 due to health issues or a family emergency and tell me you won't have a disaster in the making?
E-10 is so heavily subsidized by the US government and not efficient to produce or use it makes us look the like the "fools of the world" to other nations.
Bill
 
Ponderables:

United States refineries are at 90+% of gasolene capacity. Add 10% ethanol and here we are.

United States drilling is curtailed by the concerns of envronmentalists and political posturing. BUT!!! storage is full and we can't handle any more local oil until refinery capacity is increased.

Your thoughts.
 
What is the percentage of US refineries shut down now?
How many will never come back on line due to the EPA regulations?
How many tankers are owned by US Companies?
How many new Nuclear plants are coming on line in the next 20 years in the US?
Due to deed restrictions, HOA's, Commisions (Pinelands for one) City, Township and local laws limit a person from putting up solar, wind and geothermal to be self sufficient?
Where are all those electric cars going to get their power from?
I would agrue a 6 month cut off of middle eastern oil would bring the US to it's knees.
Bill
 
Federal law prohibits HOAs and municipalities from banning or limiting solar or any other renewable energy source installed on your property. There's plenty of case law on that one but unfortunately I don't have the citations handy. Most people don't fight over these erroneous regulations because the cost of the system and then the cost of fighting to have it installed is stupid. I've been researching a grid tie system for my house and may or may not make the jump. Even with the rebates, the eventual payoff will benefit my nonexistent grandchildren.

As for the ethanol, I had to have about $400 in repairs made to an outboard because I always (ignorantly) filled the can at the gas station on the way to the boat and then let the unused portion just sit for long periods of time. Now I just use marina fuel and run the engine dry after each use. If it's going to sit awhile, I pour it in the truck and get fresh as needed. I dont know what we'll do when it's mandated nationwide. Florida wants to go from 10% to 15% as it is :-(
 
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