I say use everything you have and know how to use the electronics and their limitations. Never rely on electronics only even with full redundancy. Always have printed charts. When in doubt ask for local advice. My primary home port and bay have very shallow waters also read the CG updates that are avaiable on-line for your area, they will give you good advice. When in doubt slow down.
How do you chart/plot...?
- Thread starter inkblue
- Start date
If one of the sounders is obstructed by debris, or just quits in the most inopportune time, you have a backup. I didn't plan on this redundancy, it's just that the boat came with one, and the multifunction unit I purchased (radar, fishfinder, GPS chartplotter), provides this functionality as well.
Knowing where you are is nice..Knowing where you are in relation to the stuff that can sink you is better. As a pilot[ret] I check my paper charts before I venture into any area unknown to me. Plot my courses and then use my GPS plotter as a comparison AND my back up handheld, then proceed as I would on a normal U/W watch. It IS nice to see yourself proceding along on the chartplotter, if you have pre-sailed the course on paper it is pretty safe.
Dick
Dick
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- 640
Dual depth finders are VERY handy for two reasons: 1) redundancy as noted above 2) one on each stern quarter really helps navigate narrow twisty channels and when positioning yerself on wrecks to fish.
I’m uncomfortable with JimP’s assertion that GPS’s are dangerous and unreliable, or that electronic charts are inherently less accurate than printed charts. Depending on the type and source of the electronic charts, they can be MORE accurate, as they are easily updateable. (paper charts that have been laying for years are good as a tablecloth, but not much more)
I’m REALLY uncomfortable with his method of using paper charts, a compass and a wristwatch as a primary navigation method, with a GPS unit as a “check”. That’s the complete reverse of how it should be, IMHO. Danger can come up on you FAST. Whether it’s a reef, a storm, debris or a go-fast traveling at 65 MPH after having a few, there is NO REASON for a boater in 2007 to make pencil scratches on a chart while referencing a Seiko when critical navigation decisions need to be made.
I’ll quote a comment I made on the thread where we last thrashed this out, when JimP referred to GPS’s as toys:
One doesn’t “navigate” with a compass and chart: that’s called dead-reckoning with paper. In order to truly navigate without technology, a host of other tools are required. When I was growing up, my Dad kept a kit that looked like a 7th-grade geometry teacher’s nightmare at his disposal at all times. Most boaters would’ve even recognize those devices today, let alone be able to effectively and safely use them. When was the last time you saw a sextant, a circle compass, an RDF, parallels and a pencil at a helm station? I bet it was a long time ago, and if it wasn’t, then THOSE are toys, and hopefully their owners are hobbyists, not boaters too intimidated by technology to make use of even basic TOOLS.
**
Shunning technology doesn’t offer anyone “Seamanship” any more than making the best use of modern, redundant systems precludes it.
I’m REALLY uncomfortable with his method of using paper charts, a compass and a wristwatch as a primary navigation method, with a GPS unit as a “check”. That’s the complete reverse of how it should be, IMHO. Danger can come up on you FAST. Whether it’s a reef, a storm, debris or a go-fast traveling at 65 MPH after having a few, there is NO REASON for a boater in 2007 to make pencil scratches on a chart while referencing a Seiko when critical navigation decisions need to be made.
I’ll quote a comment I made on the thread where we last thrashed this out, when JimP referred to GPS’s as toys:
One doesn’t “navigate” with a compass and chart: that’s called dead-reckoning with paper. In order to truly navigate without technology, a host of other tools are required. When I was growing up, my Dad kept a kit that looked like a 7th-grade geometry teacher’s nightmare at his disposal at all times. Most boaters would’ve even recognize those devices today, let alone be able to effectively and safely use them. When was the last time you saw a sextant, a circle compass, an RDF, parallels and a pencil at a helm station? I bet it was a long time ago, and if it wasn’t, then THOSE are toys, and hopefully their owners are hobbyists, not boaters too intimidated by technology to make use of even basic TOOLS.
**
Shunning technology doesn’t offer anyone “Seamanship” any more than making the best use of modern, redundant systems precludes it.
My real point is, don't solely rely on GPS if where you boat requires good navigation to be safe. The western basin of Lake Erie does. At least 6 people have died in the local area in the last three or four years doing so. Many boats have run aground.
I would not run at cruise speed in the fog because I have radar either. I have missed seeing small boats, many times, with all brands and quality of radar units.
A classic example of careless:
"When anyone asks me how I can best describe my experience in nearly forty years at sea, I merely say, uneventful. Of course there have been winter gales, and storms and fog and the like. But in all my experience, I have never been in any accident ... of any sort worth speaking about. I have seen but one vessel in distress in all my years at sea. I never saw a wreck and never have been wrecked nor was I ever in any predicament that threatened to end in disaster of any sort."
Edward J. Smith, 1907
Captain, RMS Titanic
(struck iceberg and went to the bottom
just five years later)
I would not run at cruise speed in the fog because I have radar either. I have missed seeing small boats, many times, with all brands and quality of radar units.
A classic example of careless:
"When anyone asks me how I can best describe my experience in nearly forty years at sea, I merely say, uneventful. Of course there have been winter gales, and storms and fog and the like. But in all my experience, I have never been in any accident ... of any sort worth speaking about. I have seen but one vessel in distress in all my years at sea. I never saw a wreck and never have been wrecked nor was I ever in any predicament that threatened to end in disaster of any sort."
Edward J. Smith, 1907
Captain, RMS Titanic
(struck iceberg and went to the bottom
just five years later)
In my earlier post, I forgot to mention use of an auto pilot in sync with the GPS system. I quickly learned that when cruising offshore, this system far exceeds my ability to steer on a compass azimuth, especially in 2-4' seas. It also compensates for drift, wind and current. In my area, creeks are up to a half mile wide and the on the Neuse River - widest in America at 5 miles - there are few landmarks identifiable from a mile or so offshore. . . only stretches of pine trees. Looking out for Markers requires binoculars and full attention which should be done anyway. If my system goes out, I know exactly where I am and can then rely on charts to continue. I also constantly monitor the depth finder to confirm channel clearances along with markers when in a narrow course.
It is far too easy to become complacent while operating with any form of navigating electronics. A clear distinction between electronic navigation limitations and the captain's navigating abilities, academic reasoning, and senses is necessary when running a course. Do not think for one second the boat's electronics can anticipate unforseen events and obstacles - fixed or moving.
Our autopilot is great when cruising on long legs of a programed route and when shorthanded, allowing me to attend to fine tuning of the rig, or relaxing a bit on deck. However, although it is set up to do so, I have never felt comfortable activating syncronization of my GPS chartploter with the autopilot (Raymarine SeaTalk).
Steve
In addition of course, to pre-programmed GPS routes, my extensive collection of paper charts are always on display at the chart table of the pilothouse.
I've plotted directly on these charts, every route for each destination within our typical coastal cruising zones. So all I need to do is pull out the appropriate set of charts to maintain as a check to the GPS and as backup in case of failure.
Our autopilot is great when cruising on long legs of a programed route and when shorthanded, allowing me to attend to fine tuning of the rig, or relaxing a bit on deck. However, although it is set up to do so, I have never felt comfortable activating syncronization of my GPS chartploter with the autopilot (Raymarine SeaTalk).
Steve
In addition of course, to pre-programmed GPS routes, my extensive collection of paper charts are always on display at the chart table of the pilothouse.
I've plotted directly on these charts, every route for each destination within our typical coastal cruising zones. So all I need to do is pull out the appropriate set of charts to maintain as a check to the GPS and as backup in case of failure.
- Joined
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I plot using desktop computer software and transfer the waypoints to the chartplotter on the boat.
While running, I always have the paper chart out and compare it to what the chartplotter is telling me. I also carry a backup handheld GPS in my ditch-bag and I pull that out once in a while to make sure it is working properly.
While running, I always have the paper chart out and compare it to what the chartplotter is telling me. I also carry a backup handheld GPS in my ditch-bag and I pull that out once in a while to make sure it is working properly.
Paper Charts are out of date by the time they are printed,
It is worth noting, however, that NOAA (Notice To Mariners) update their charts weekly. If the charts are already downloaded onto a PC the updates correct the chartfiles almost instantly. This can easily be done, even using a cellphone, if not modem/WiFi connected.
David
It is worth noting, however, that NOAA (Notice To Mariners) update their charts weekly. If the charts are already downloaded onto a PC the updates correct the chartfiles almost instantly. This can easily be done, even using a cellphone, if not modem/WiFi connected.
David
If my boat is enshrouded by fog and struck by lightning while cruising offshore, frying all electronics onboard, including my handheld, dead-reckoning and paper charts will sure be a welcome GPS supplement, regardless of NOAA's NTM updates (which should be hand-notated on all your charts anyway).
Steve, I'm surprised that you don't like to interface the autopilot with GPS. When I run on autopilot, I get BETTER performance and accuracy when it's been given a waypoint reference. When steering by fluxgate alone, she wanders gently across the lake, unless the toaster-oven shifts in the fwd hold, at which point she'll try to do figure-8's… I use a waypoint for the autopilot the majority of the time.
I think we all agree that complacency and reliance on a single method are bad, but that’s not exclusive to paper vs. electronics. The most horrific accident stories I know of had nothing to do with navigation or lack thereof – it was loads of poor judgment or just plain bad luck.
All other things being equal, if you plop two guys into boats in the middle of unknown waters, one with a chart and one with a GPS, my money will be on the guy with the GPS.
I’m not now, nor have I ever suggested that we do away with paper. I carry paper charts where-ever we go, but the GPS’s are my primary reference. There are entire areas of the Great Lakes that I would consider off-limits if it weren’t for electronic positioning technology.
I think we all agree that complacency and reliance on a single method are bad, but that’s not exclusive to paper vs. electronics. The most horrific accident stories I know of had nothing to do with navigation or lack thereof – it was loads of poor judgment or just plain bad luck.
All other things being equal, if you plop two guys into boats in the middle of unknown waters, one with a chart and one with a GPS, my money will be on the guy with the GPS.
I’m not now, nor have I ever suggested that we do away with paper. I carry paper charts where-ever we go, but the GPS’s are my primary reference. There are entire areas of the Great Lakes that I would consider off-limits if it weren’t for electronic positioning technology.
I have paper charts for everywhere i have been, but on a normal trip i plot on my Garmin 3110. I zoom in and I follow the planned course to see if there is anything in route that might not be seen when zoomed out. At a good zoom I see as much or more detail as shown on paper. In harbors i see much more. The charts are the same (mine Blue Chart) so the same details are there if you zoom in. I use auto pilot to go to a way point and then set another way point or goto a known way point. In 2005 we did 5 days in the North Channel, at night I got the paper charts out, trip planned, (plotted course) and then transfered it to (at that time) Raymarine E120. After on the E120 I zoomed in and traced the course again looking for anything I might have missed on paper charts.
I have traveled 75 miles or more in 4 foot seas over open water and hit my point exactly with my plotter. I am sure that would be very hard to duplicate with compass and steered headings in water that rough. Often i have tried to steer with compass only, In heavy seas with my best efforts i am lucky to stay on course within several hundred feet. In our area there are open water reefs far off shore, well marked, but if you were 2 hundred feet off to the wrong side you would run aground. I like the paper for reference, but i want electronic for running the boat. I am going to add a second portable battery GPS plotter to my tools for the time the first one fails and if that fails I will do my best with my paper charts, but i hope it is not rough as i doubt I could steer a very tight course in four footers.
John d
I have traveled 75 miles or more in 4 foot seas over open water and hit my point exactly with my plotter. I am sure that would be very hard to duplicate with compass and steered headings in water that rough. Often i have tried to steer with compass only, In heavy seas with my best efforts i am lucky to stay on course within several hundred feet. In our area there are open water reefs far off shore, well marked, but if you were 2 hundred feet off to the wrong side you would run aground. I like the paper for reference, but i want electronic for running the boat. I am going to add a second portable battery GPS plotter to my tools for the time the first one fails and if that fails I will do my best with my paper charts, but i hope it is not rough as i doubt I could steer a very tight course in four footers.
John d
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2003
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i like to use paper charts to plan a trip into unfamiliar water to select the best route, clear of any dangers (shoals, etc...) but while underway, i do rely on the plotter although paper charts remain within reach. this doens't mean that i will not double check my position using landmarks but so far in the 15 or 16 years i've been using GPS (anyone remember the ole Sony PYXIS with it's round antena a detachable 2 line display? 
) i've yet to have one fail or put me in wrong spot.
the guys who get lost using plotters or endup crashing in a marker or rock, woudl have done exactly the same using paper charts...
i like to keep my eyes out of the boat while underway, a plotter makes that possible.
) i've yet to have one fail or put me in wrong spot.the guys who get lost using plotters or endup crashing in a marker or rock, woudl have done exactly the same using paper charts...
i like to keep my eyes out of the boat while underway, a plotter makes that possible.