Insurance for rental boat
- Thread starter danielcooper9
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Thanks for everyone's input. I'll look more into umbrella policy coverage and trying to get a ryder on the marina's insurance policy.
Bob, you have inspired me to be perfect and never make a mistake from now on. Thanks!
Bob, you have inspired me to be perfect and never make a mistake from now on. Thanks!
B
blouderback
Guest
Mistakes are different than negligence. You make a mistake, and the rental company's insurance will pay. You are NEGLIGENT, and the insurance company does not pay. This is what you told us.
By the way, if you have your own insurance, and you cause someone or something harm because of NEGLIGENCE, your own insurance company may choose not to pay either.
By the way, if you have your own insurance, and you cause someone or something harm because of NEGLIGENCE, your own insurance company may choose not to pay either.
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That's not accurate Bob. Example, I have never been in a boat accident or had a claim but I did have a fender bender one time when I happend to look away for a few seconds and didn't notice the guy in front of me decided stop suddenly to make a turn. Very minor damage but the point is that my mistake was negligence. There are many mistakes that you can make that you wouldn't have made in hindsight and could have been prevented. That is why they call it a mistake. There are many things that theoretically could happen while boating that could be construed as negligence or fault by operator. Very low probability of happening but...
I think this is an important question and it's too bad there is not a clear answer here. I would be very interested to know whether the personal liability coverage in a homeowners plus an umbrella covers this kind of thing or not. You can say umbrella policy, but something has to cover from the ground up to the base level of the umbrella which is usually several hundred $K. I think mine is 500k. I don't have that lying around in petty cash.
Mistake vs negligence seems to me to be far too subject to interpretation. You strayed out of a channel and hit rocks and sank the boat. It was a mistake. You did not mean to do that and you weren't talking on your cell phone or dead drunk at the time. But, you were negligent in not observing the channel markers, reading the chart, obtaining local knowledge, etc. So which is it? Such things often get decided in court after much money is spent on lawyers. The key is to have someone else on the hook for a big chunk of change so they have to defend you to defend themself.
Mistake vs negligence seems to me to be far too subject to interpretation. You strayed out of a channel and hit rocks and sank the boat. It was a mistake. You did not mean to do that and you weren't talking on your cell phone or dead drunk at the time. But, you were negligent in not observing the channel markers, reading the chart, obtaining local knowledge, etc. So which is it? Such things often get decided in court after much money is spent on lawyers. The key is to have someone else on the hook for a big chunk of change so they have to defend you to defend themself.
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Ron, good points and you made me remember an interesting side point to my car accident. I got a letter from an attorney representing the other driver basically saying that they were going to sue me for "negligence" which scared the sh** out of me because I've never been in an accident. Keep in mind that there was about $1,000 damage to both cars, no airbags deployed, very minor. I called my insurance company after receiving the letter and they guy told me it was not big deal they would take care of it. He said it happens all the time. Around here, there are comercials from blood sucking lawyers all the time telling people if your ever involved in any accident, "hire me because the insurance company won't give you the justice you deserve". I guess it helps people get more money because insurance companies will settle for more money than fight a legal case. Anyway, my rambling point is that in our sue happy society there are a lot of things that could happen (outside of boating) that could be construed as negligence. I have to really see if an "umbrella" policy covers everything.? There must be all kinds of exclusions that I never really thought of.
Please provide an example scenario to document what you are trying to teach us in the above 3 situations.
1) A mistake, rental company pays.
2) Negligence, insurance company does not pay.
3) Your own insurance choosing not to pay an injured party due to your negligence on your boat.
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Daniel
If you own a boat and have liability ins. then you should be covered for any vessel that you are in control of. I would call my agent and ask them or read your policy. It may not cover damages on the rented vessel but should cover you for the liability to someone else.
Even in a auto accident your insurance co. can go after another driver. They always have that right. Most of the time it is toward the other persons ins.
It also sounds like the Marina you are renting from is trying to scare you into buying the extra ins. to take care of the deductible. Also ask them if you do damage and the boat is layed up for a period of time, will you be responsible for any or part of other booked rentals that are missed because the boat is damaged.
I do bareboat charters on my cruiser and that is the case with mine. The renter must be responsible for 80% of lost charter fees for those that are missed.
If you own a boat and have liability ins. then you should be covered for any vessel that you are in control of. I would call my agent and ask them or read your policy. It may not cover damages on the rented vessel but should cover you for the liability to someone else.
Even in a auto accident your insurance co. can go after another driver. They always have that right. Most of the time it is toward the other persons ins.
It also sounds like the Marina you are renting from is trying to scare you into buying the extra ins. to take care of the deductible. Also ask them if you do damage and the boat is layed up for a period of time, will you be responsible for any or part of other booked rentals that are missed because the boat is damaged.
I do bareboat charters on my cruiser and that is the case with mine. The renter must be responsible for 80% of lost charter fees for those that are missed.
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Van,
My boat insurance policy actually specifically excludes any coverage for boat rental. I've only talked to the marina that I'm renting from once and will call them back but actually they weren't offering to sell any sort of insurance to me. I actually raised the question to them on how the insurance works and they guy basically said they insure the boat but that insurance does not cover me (my personal liability). I'm probably making a bigger deal out of this than it is.
Dan
My boat insurance policy actually specifically excludes any coverage for boat rental. I've only talked to the marina that I'm renting from once and will call them back but actually they weren't offering to sell any sort of insurance to me. I actually raised the question to them on how the insurance works and they guy basically said they insure the boat but that insurance does not cover me (my personal liability). I'm probably making a bigger deal out of this than it is.
Dan
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Daniel,
I think I would stay away from that rental co. If they do not have liability cov. My coverage for my boat covered capt. and crew for liability. I paid more for that and needed to make sure they were responsible and capable of handling the boat. I would think the marina could get you intouch with their Ins. Co. and you should be able to get a Rider for very little money to take care of your need.
I think I would stay away from that rental co. If they do not have liability cov. My coverage for my boat covered capt. and crew for liability. I paid more for that and needed to make sure they were responsible and capable of handling the boat. I would think the marina could get you intouch with their Ins. Co. and you should be able to get a Rider for very little money to take care of your need.
B
blouderback
Guest
My responses in Blue. And BTW, I'm not trying to "teach" anyone anything. All I said was, DON'T BE NEGLIGENT!
Bob, not sure why you feel you have to YELL AT ME. I'm trying to understand the points you are putting forth. The primary reason I'm doing that is because I don't agree with you and since I'm not an expert in law or insurance perhaps I could learn something from you.
The point raised earlier about straying out of the channel is a very good case in my opinion of where a mistake made would still be consider operator negligence if you hit bottom.
The point raised earlier about straying out of the channel is a very good case in my opinion of where a mistake made would still be consider operator negligence if you hit bottom.
B
blouderback
Guest
Sorry, I didn't mean to yell. I was just re-emphasizing that my original statement was that danielcooper9 should not be negligent, and he'd be OK.
I feel that there is a big difference between negligence and mistakes. Insurance companies feel the same way, too. From my policy:
I feel that there is a big difference between negligence and mistakes. Insurance companies feel the same way, too. From my policy:
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I'll add a little more confusion to this issue. I called several other marinas in the Keys and they all said that they can't get insurance and renter cannot get insurance for a rental boat. Therefore, if a boat gets damaged during use, you are personally liable for repairs. This is consistent with what my insurance company has told me that no one offers insurance for a boat that you do not own. At the same time, I called the marina back that I rented the boat from and questioned him on this and he insists that they do have insurance that would cover boat damage and personal injury but that doesn't mean the insurance company wouldn't come after me. Boat rentals are that uncommon. I can't believe that there isn't a solution for this.
Bob, I think we are talking about the difference between what I would call gross negligence (your wasted and going 60 mph and crash into something) and an accident which can be caused by operator failure (examples given earlier). I can easily avoid gross negligence but that doesn't mean I won't make a mistake. It's semantics and we don't need to beat this dead horse any longer.
Bob, I think we are talking about the difference between what I would call gross negligence (your wasted and going 60 mph and crash into something) and an accident which can be caused by operator failure (examples given earlier). I can easily avoid gross negligence but that doesn't mean I won't make a mistake. It's semantics and we don't need to beat this dead horse any longer.
But that says "gross negligence" If I'm not mistaken that is not the same as negligence!
Why is it that anything that involved a lawyer is NEVER clear! Never meet a group of people that could say so much and have it mean so little!
Why is it that anything that involved a lawyer is NEVER clear! Never meet a group of people that could say so much and have it mean so little!
B
blouderback
Guest
OK, so just don't be grossly negligent, and you'll be OK.
Hi!
Hi!
David Newland
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Here's what I found in my Homeowners, Boatowners and Umbrella policies. All insured with the same company:
My Homeowners policy excludes coverage for the rented boat itself, but does provide liability coverage in certain instances: If I own/rent an inboard or I/O 50 hp or less or if I own/rent a sailboat 26 feet in length or less.
Interestingly, with outboard power, it only excludes boats owned by me that have more than 25 hp total. I can rent any outboard powered boat and have liability coverage. Again, no coverage for the boat itself, just liability coverage to cover damage caused by my operation.
My Boatowners policy excludes everything for a boat that isn't listed on my declarations page (unless it's newly aquired). No extension of coverage at all for a rented/borrowed boat.
My Liability Umbrella Policy follows suit with my Homeowners Liability or Boatowners Liability policy. If it's covered there, then the Umbrella will typically cover it.
The "loss of rent" question is a good one. With my company, "loss of rent" coverage for a wrecked rented auto comes from the Umbrella, or your auto policy needs an endorsement. I don't know yet how this coverage would come into play for a rented boat. Probably best to clear that up with the boat rental company. If they charge you for "loss of rent" but don't offer the coverage, I bet it would take a Claim Adjuster/Manager from your Ins Co. specializing in Liability claims to decifer that coverage question.
My Homeowners policy excludes coverage for the rented boat itself, but does provide liability coverage in certain instances: If I own/rent an inboard or I/O 50 hp or less or if I own/rent a sailboat 26 feet in length or less.
Interestingly, with outboard power, it only excludes boats owned by me that have more than 25 hp total. I can rent any outboard powered boat and have liability coverage. Again, no coverage for the boat itself, just liability coverage to cover damage caused by my operation.
My Boatowners policy excludes everything for a boat that isn't listed on my declarations page (unless it's newly aquired). No extension of coverage at all for a rented/borrowed boat.
My Liability Umbrella Policy follows suit with my Homeowners Liability or Boatowners Liability policy. If it's covered there, then the Umbrella will typically cover it.
The "loss of rent" question is a good one. With my company, "loss of rent" coverage for a wrecked rented auto comes from the Umbrella, or your auto policy needs an endorsement. I don't know yet how this coverage would come into play for a rented boat. Probably best to clear that up with the boat rental company. If they charge you for "loss of rent" but don't offer the coverage, I bet it would take a Claim Adjuster/Manager from your Ins Co. specializing in Liability claims to decifer that coverage question.
Anybody think about just calling an Insurance Company and asking THEM all the questions?
Oh wait a minute.........THAT would be to easy....let's pose the question to a bunch of people that probably have no FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE in such matters and we'll go with the majority?
( THAT....is how we go Obama )
Oh wait a minute.........THAT would be to easy....let's pose the question to a bunch of people that probably have no FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE in such matters and we'll go with the majority?
( THAT....is how we go Obama )