July 4th tragedy - New Law Support needed

Dave, what airline or size plane do you fly that its that cramped?
 
Matt, I don't think that the plane is cramped, it's a matter of correct weight distribution. Those small planes need to be evenly balanced. I have been on some when they had people move around to balance out the load.
 
The abstract idea of manditory training sounds great but the practicality falls far short unless you are prepared to go with multi stage licensing like aircraft complete with type rating. The only type of licensing being proposed is single level so it has to be easy enough for a new boater with no experience can pass. If you make it comprehensive enough to deal with offshore navigation, stability, high speed boats including hydroplanes, radar operation, etc there will never be any new boaters and recreational boating will cease to exist. What is being proposed is similar to drivers licenses. No way a three point turn in a parking lot and a drive around the block tests or is relavent to merging onto a crowded freeway with the right lane moving 70 MPH like the washington beltway or handling Boston traffic.
There will always be Captains, licensed or otherwise, who are committed to lifelong learning and practice constantly improving there skill typical of most of the people on this site. Unfortunately we share the water with operators who don't care to learn and no license will fix that.
 
quote:
Another worthless "boater education" law will do nothing.
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In some ways, I have to agree. There comes a point where boaters pass an easy course and disregard what was in the course when out on the water. In my opinion, it's the responsibility of the captain to ensure the safety of the boat and his passengers. Passengers may be along for the ride assuming the captain know what's safe or not.
In this incident, there is one person to blame and he should accept what happened. Passing new laws is not going to change anything.
 
No, Rich we don't need another law. All too often a tragedy happens and people think a new law with a child's name is wonderful. It is not. What really happens is the actions of one person out of millions of boaters, a single, uncommon event affects all the rest of us; the manufacturers and other small business. It snowballs. Naval architects, certification of existing boats, agencies, insurance hikes for uncertified boats, law suits and the problems for custom builders that may only make one boat annually.

We all pay and loose a little from one act of poor judgement and peoples desire to legislate 100% safety.

Why not a Sara's Law to require locks on medicine cabinets for the thousands of children that are poisoned annually? Or Jill's law for ... More laws are not the solution.
 
I find the OP to be highly suspect.

Why send people to the donation request page instead of directly to the petition page????? This really smells of link spamming.
 
Rommer if this is the case I case he was barking up the wrong tree!
Didn't get much support around here.
 
quote:
Originally posted by rommer

I find the OP to be highly suspect.

Why send people to the donation request page instead of directly to the petition page????? This really smells of link spamming.

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I said this thread should be removed, but i liked that it turned into a debate about the law.

I think the OP is legit member and the request was legit. He went to that page so you can read the little story about the precious life lost.

But I agree with all, the law, the donation both are uncalled for. I feel for the family. Losing a child is the hardest thing in life.

You look at every child lost an 9 times out of 10 it was due to adult supervision gone bad. Swimming pools, choking, pill ingestion, guns, cars, boats, etc. As adults, we have a responsability to protect children and animals who don't know better.

The more I read this thread the more I want to see charges brought against the owner and captain and any Licensed captains on that boat. In fact, I may start a petition to do just that. Will you sign?
 
quote:
Originally posted by CurrentSea

quote:
Originally posted by rommer

I find the OP to be highly suspect.

Why send people to the donation request page instead of directly to the petition page????? This really smells of link spamming.

Click to expand...


I said this thread should be removed, but i liked that it turned into a debate about the law.

I think the OP is legit member and the request was legit. He went to that page so you can read the little story about the precious life lost.

But I agree with all, the law, the donation both are uncalled for. I feel for the family. Losing a child is the hardest thing in life.

You look at every child lost an 9 times out of 10 it was due to adult supervision gone bad. Swimming pools, choking, pill ingestion, guns, cars, boats, etc. As adults, we have a responsability to protect children and animals who don't know better.

The more I read this thread the more I want to see charges brought against the owner and captain and any Licensed captains on that boat. In fact, I may start a petition to do just that. Will you sign?

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I will.
 
It does not make sense to me that boats bigger than a certain size do not have capacity plates. With any small boat, it is obvious how much weight it can safely carry, if you look at what it says on that plate. Why should owners of larger crafts be denied that information? You buy a mid sized SUV, you look at the cert plate and it tells you how much load it can carry and the axle rating for both axles. You go buy a 3/4 ton pick up truck it tells you the same thing. Why not for boats? Not only that, boat makers could calculate how much weight/persons can be carried on a flybridge without making the boat dangerously top heavy. There is no reason why this information should not be standard equipment on all boats. While I agree that there were too many people on that boat and probably too many up high on the flybridge, there is a grey area of loading that one could determine just what a safe weight limit is.
Recall after the Ford Explorer problems with tire blowouts. That lead to the gov't requiring the tire pressure monitoring systems for vehicles. While some feel that they are a pain (sensors do go bad), they do provide very useful information. Not only that, it made many more people aware of the risk of tire underinflation which was always a big problem.
 
My problem with having a manufacturer tell me how many people I can put on my boat is that in this sue happy society we live in, if the safe limit is really 12, the manufacturer will make it 8 to protect himself. This issue would have more weight with me if we were talking about a problem that occurred with 15 people aboard not 27. Of course this issue also took place on a boat that was more than 25 years old.

I thought about this thread this morning on my way to work on the Belt Pkwy. A guy in a custom Lexis was weaving in and out of traffic at high speed and even went on the shoulder to pass and then cut back in. A guy with an expensive car and a license. You can't fix stupid with a license.
 
How would a manufacturer determine capacity on a flybridge boat? You could have 10 people down below, keeping the center of gravity low, and it could be safe.

Put those same 10 people on the bridge, raising the center of gravity, and it could be disaster in the making.

People have to use their own common sense and life experience. I determine if it is safe to go out on the boat by looking at the forecast, the weather radar, the direction of the winds, the height of the waves and the ability of me and my boat to handle all of the above. Do we need a law mandating that I do that?

I need to be sure that I have enough fuel to get to my destination, do we need a law mandating that?

Where does it end????
 
It has been very interesting reading where this thread has gone. I had not yet responded, to any specific post, because I felt it was up to the forum members to either sign the petition or not. If you didn't want to sign, no problem. If you did, fine. However, it appears some want to hear my thoughts. I think that is what "OP" means. If you read my original post, all I presented was to "please sign the petition". Your choice, sign or not. Nothing more. I never asked, or expected, donations to be an issue. I was only trying to aid a co-worker with a cause and to read their story. This topic thread's has certainly educated me about exactly what every facet of this law is about. I agree expecting diver's to be at every event is extreme.

"My" (they don't have to be yours) thoughts on where this tragedy should take us certainly is not on making it impossible to enjoy life on the water. I am quite sure all members of this wonderful forum and BoaterEd in general have the knowledge they need to boat safely. It would be great if every boater had the same knowledge.

I would hope this tragedy finally leads us to, if not better "laws" or guidance, to what is at the very core of BoaterEd's tagline...Dedicated to Boater Education. Maybe requiring a Safety course or "some" preliminary understanding of how to operate a boat (BEFORE being allowed to buy and/or opearate one) should be required. It is truly unbelievable someone with a checkbook/credit/cash can walk into boat store and drive away a boat owner. I also agree Education is not going to guarantee certain stupid acts will not occur, but may "possibly" be a little voice inside their head when boating.

Over crowding was certainly an issue, and wakes from other boats were certainly an issue as well. Maybe other boaters that night do not even know if their wake contributed to this tragedy or not. Maybe they don't even know what a wake is.

If this new law is too extreme or not, maybe it will instill some sense in the powers that be, that more Education and Knowledge is needed.

There will certainly still be Stupid/Careless acts, but at least some comfort can be provided that at least they had some education, and for whatever reason, went against it.

Thank you for letting me respond and may the thread continue... Peace and Happy Boating to you and your families.
 
Rich,

Thank you for your follow-up/reply.

While I am generally in agreement that everyone be required to take a boater safety course, I fail to see how that would have prevented this tragedy. Are we expecting the USPS or USCGA to define that if your boat is listing to some defined degree or your water line is below water or you don't have enough seats for your guests or whatever that your boat is overloaded?

As to the wakes from the other boats, even those captains who are aware that they are responsible for their wakes would not normally think about the boat next to them that is overloaded in open water without speed restrictions. Even assuming that nobody was going too fast for the conditions it is possible to have significant wakes at as low as 10 or 12 knots.

IMO when you are out on the water you are responsible for the safety of your own boat and crew. The rush of boats leaving the show and the resulting wakes were a circumstance that should have been anticipated.
 
As I read some of the posts, I see again that some must play pass the blame game. Unless the USS Nimitz was at the Fire Work show and left at flank speed I dont care how many boats were out there, the wakes from other boats will not cause any modern boat to capsize. Deffinitly not a 34' flybridge that normally can handle 8 - 10 footers.

I have a 17' CC with about 12" of freeboard and I have been out fishing on very busy weekends and holidays with all sorts of boat traffic in the GSB and I have never taken on water. Maybe it was a little bouncy and stuff moving all over the place. Even 50' Sport fish wakes on plane at 30kts plus did not capsize my boat.

But if the boat was properly loaded and unless that 34 silverton hit a 15' wake it would not capsize.

STOP PUSHING BLAME. BOTTOM LINE CAPTAIN AND OWNER 100% RESPONSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
You want more laws? Get em, write em, pass em.

You know what I just saw?

GF wanted to go for a ride, took the little boat out. I am heading south approaching the meadowbrook bridge. I see a 27 Searay Sundancer pulling a tube with 4 yes 4 kids that have to be under the age of 12. They are not far from the bridge.

Anyone from the LICC should know thats one dumb place to pull a tube with kids on it. AND THE SEARAY WAS ON PLANE!

Pass the laws they arent going to do s-it
 
quote:
Originally posted by CurrentSea

I am not a fan of this whole thread and I think the moderators should consider removing it.

First off, don't get me wrong here. I feel very bad for this family and all involved. But if you go to their website, they are seeking donations in addition to passing this law. It says the donations will be used " All proceeds will go to the family for expenses ".

Granted there was expenses involved in burying this beautiful little girl whose life was cut way too short, but I fail to see how both the donations and the signing of this petition are justified.

If I drive drunk, and kill my best friend in the passenger seat of my car, you going to give me money and/or help me pass a law to stop idiots like me from drinking?

Just my .02.

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Not going to happen, I was asked before this was posted if this was ok.

This is a great thread, it is boating related, and this happened in our neck of the woods.
 
I posted early on, but deleted it. I deleted it because for some weird reason, when I post sh4t it goes in that direction. I wanted to hear all the thoughts here. So with that said, here is what I think.

This was a tragedy based on moronic acts from a seasoned boater, laws would not change that. Also, the ****i--ng morons that put their kids on this boat are more responsible than the captain, well maybe not, but a close call there IMHO.
You cannot legislate stupidity. I do agree you should have a class before someone just drives off with a boat.

I don't give a crap if this offends anyone, I say it the way it is.
 
Walter

I think the issue of the original link is the one that is suspect. The debate is excellent so instead of deleting the thread how about changing the link, in the OP, to the petition page directly instead of the donation solicitation link.

Dave

Another +1 on signing your petition.
 
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