For used 35-45 foot power boats earlier than, say, 1995? I've had brokers tell me it's been pretty bad the last 18 months or so. They say many if not most are financed and the owners are "upside down" in them and don't reduce the price because they can't or won't come up with the cash to pay off the bank. True or False??
Just how bad is the boat market?
- Thread starter av8djc
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2001
- RO Number
- 3813
- Messages
- 9,936
I would say if you are buying, it's a fantastic market.
If you are selling, the market stinks.
Sure there are lots of people who are "upside down", but sooner or later they will realize that it costs less to "bite the bullet" than to keep paying the bank, the marina and the insurance company to keep a boat that you don't want.
If you are selling, the market stinks.
Sure there are lots of people who are "upside down", but sooner or later they will realize that it costs less to "bite the bullet" than to keep paying the bank, the marina and the insurance company to keep a boat that you don't want.
"Just how bad is the boat market?"
If it's not very bad, then it's very, very bad.
"owners are "upside down" in them and don't reduce the price because they can't or won't come up with the cash to pay off the bank. True or False??"
I think that, in most cases, it has nothing to do with financing. Owners/sellers don't reduce the price to reflect the actual market because owners/sellers always think that their boat is nicer and/or better than the competition and, therefore, worth more.
Aren't all sellers (that's us) like that?
Don't all buyers (that's us) want to pay less -- a lot less?
If it's not very bad, then it's very, very bad.
"owners are "upside down" in them and don't reduce the price because they can't or won't come up with the cash to pay off the bank. True or False??"
I think that, in most cases, it has nothing to do with financing. Owners/sellers don't reduce the price to reflect the actual market because owners/sellers always think that their boat is nicer and/or better than the competition and, therefore, worth more.
Aren't all sellers (that's us) like that?
Don't all buyers (that's us) want to pay less -- a lot less?
It depends on the price point. Tiara built and sold 404 boats last year at an average price of $500,000. This year they have already sold 40 more than for the same time last year. One dealer in Michigan sold 5 large Tiaras at the Miami boat show. The company just added 300,000 plus square feet to its factory and can now build 800 boats a year under the one roof.
I don't think Tiara's sales of new boats is the issue here. Joe SixPack buys used 35-45 foot power boats earlier 1995 and Joe SixPack is the one getting squeezed, although I don't know how many people are upside down on 12 year old boats. I do know that there are a lot of folks buried in late model boats that they cannot sell at a price that will make them well without going out-of-pocket for the balance. Some of these new "factory direct easy financing plans" are very attractive up front but kill the buyer in the end.
Sounds to me that overall used boat buyers are smarter than new boat owners. Took me 3 new boats before I learned that buying new is not the best way to buy a boat. The manufacturers will keep raising prices as long as people keep paying them.
I agree..... I bet there are ALOT more people upside down in new boats....then used. If you take advantage of low and 0% interest finance offers.....and 20-25-30 year loans...without a large $$$$ down stroke.....you will get upside down real fast.
becareful.....there are sharks in the water !
becareful.....there are sharks in the water !
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2002
- RO Number
- 9357
- Messages
- 533
The fact is that new boats are horrible investments to begin with. In my opinion, the only way to finance a brand new boat is to get a substantial discount (at least 30 - 35% off MSRP) then put down another 25% in cash. That way you can keep ahead of the rapid depreciation.
The used boat market isn't so hot either. Look at Woodsong's boat! Been for sale for over 9 months at a killer price, and the boat looks like it's in excellent condition, fresh water use, and his price is very very low.
The used boat market isn't so hot either. Look at Woodsong's boat! Been for sale for over 9 months at a killer price, and the boat looks like it's in excellent condition, fresh water use, and his price is very very low.
Good topic -
I agree, the markets just very soft right now. A low price is a good starting point and can generate interest where competition is stiff but, right now, supply so outweighs demand that "competition" may not be the operative term in todays market. There just aren't many real buyers and that's complicated by more than just boat prices. Slip price/avialability, as well as other costs like insurance, maintenance and fuel are all working against the market. I beleive the buyers that are out there aren't just shopping on price right now. They have so many options, at good prices, that they can really concentrate on finding the right boat based on other criteria. If your boat happens to be that "right boat" for the right buyer and close to the right price, a sale is made. If you have the wrong boat, even if it's dirt cheap, it won't sell. Even those of us that aren't upside down are faced with some tough choices.
My kids are getting to the age where summer time is a real challenge on boat utilization due to practice 5 nights a week and one or 2 games on the weekends. We're considering selling our boat but have resolved that given how much we'de have to let it go for, and the reality that it may not sell in one season, we're not sure if it's wiser to enjoy it as our schedule allows and wait for brighter days either on the sales side or the time side.
I agree, the markets just very soft right now. A low price is a good starting point and can generate interest where competition is stiff but, right now, supply so outweighs demand that "competition" may not be the operative term in todays market. There just aren't many real buyers and that's complicated by more than just boat prices. Slip price/avialability, as well as other costs like insurance, maintenance and fuel are all working against the market. I beleive the buyers that are out there aren't just shopping on price right now. They have so many options, at good prices, that they can really concentrate on finding the right boat based on other criteria. If your boat happens to be that "right boat" for the right buyer and close to the right price, a sale is made. If you have the wrong boat, even if it's dirt cheap, it won't sell. Even those of us that aren't upside down are faced with some tough choices.
My kids are getting to the age where summer time is a real challenge on boat utilization due to practice 5 nights a week and one or 2 games on the weekends. We're considering selling our boat but have resolved that given how much we'de have to let it go for, and the reality that it may not sell in one season, we're not sure if it's wiser to enjoy it as our schedule allows and wait for brighter days either on the sales side or the time side.
Just so happens there is a big in water boat show here in Newport Beach CA this weekend. They are showing a record number of boats. An article in the newspaper reported that the rich are still buying expensive boats and small boats are still selling. It's the 24 to 36 foot range that is suffering. We will probably still go but the prices are just crazy.
newsailor06
Member
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2006
- RO Number
- 20629
- Messages
- 59
I am a relative newbie to all of this and in the non-power boat group. One of the major items (for me) that kept me away from powerboating was the increasing cost of fuel. This, and the cost of a new boat as has been stated.
We went to our local boat show this year and looked at both sail and power boats. A new Catalina 270 cost $65,000 and then it needed other options to outfit it properly. We also looked at many of the powerboats approximately the same size. Many were up around and over $100,000. We are not lacking in resources by any means, but to me those prices are what keep me from considering new.
A used boat that has been well taken care of with many of the options, not included on a new one, is the best way to make a good deal. I search the internet site many times a week just waiting for that good buy that will help me move up to a 28-30 footer. I hardly ever look at the new boats on the manufacturers sites. I may take as long as 2 years to find what I am looking for.
Again, I am new at this, but not crazy.
We went to our local boat show this year and looked at both sail and power boats. A new Catalina 270 cost $65,000 and then it needed other options to outfit it properly. We also looked at many of the powerboats approximately the same size. Many were up around and over $100,000. We are not lacking in resources by any means, but to me those prices are what keep me from considering new.
A used boat that has been well taken care of with many of the options, not included on a new one, is the best way to make a good deal. I search the internet site many times a week just waiting for that good buy that will help me move up to a 28-30 footer. I hardly ever look at the new boats on the manufacturers sites. I may take as long as 2 years to find what I am looking for.
Again, I am new at this, but not crazy.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2004
- RO Number
- 13060
- Messages
- 2,554
The used boat market stinks if you are a seller. I just took a deposit on my 1984 Trojan F36. Boat is in terrific shape and looks like a 10 year old boat. I sold her for less than I think she is worth and far less than I have invested. She served me well and I have no regrets because I used her alot in 5 seasons and enjoyed it.
Every prospect that came to look at it was impressed. The issue was getting someone down to look. Curb appeal (literally) was the key. The boat looks great and can be seen from the road. I had just as much traffic from people that saw the sign as I did from advertising at a cost of **$1,300. In the end, a guy from out of state happened to be driving by and it was just what he was looking for. He paid more than he wanted to, I took less.
Luckily, I don't owe any money on it.
Every prospect that came to look at it was impressed. The issue was getting someone down to look. Curb appeal (literally) was the key. The boat looks great and can be seen from the road. I had just as much traffic from people that saw the sign as I did from advertising at a cost of **$1,300. In the end, a guy from out of state happened to be driving by and it was just what he was looking for. He paid more than he wanted to, I took less.
Luckily, I don't owe any money on it.
Wow I come back to my thread 24 hours later and find it full of good comments. Specifically I'm looking for a 38-43 Trawler to do the Great Loop in for under $90k. I got a Yachtworld sold list for a popular brand 40' long and there were only two sales reported in 2005, none since, and there's about a dozen currently for sale. I just don't understand why prices are not a lot less. I guess some are like jav1 and just hang on until they can use it more, some just think too much of their boat (living in a dream world) and various other reasons.
I know I need to buy it really right if I expect to be able to sell it a year later. Thanks for the thoughts.
BTW, it seems the left coast is not as bad off.
I know I need to buy it really right if I expect to be able to sell it a year later. Thanks for the thoughts.
BTW, it seems the left coast is not as bad off.
Mark,
Congrats on your sale pending! I sent you a private message over at the Trojan Onwers forum but don't know how often you look over there. Would you mind contacting me off line when you have a chance (email is in the PM)?
Thanks
Congrats on your sale pending! I sent you a private message over at the Trojan Onwers forum but don't know how often you look over there. Would you mind contacting me off line when you have a chance (email is in the PM)?
Thanks
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2004
- RO Number
- 13060
- Messages
- 2,554
Jav1
Thanks!
I've been having trouble getting on that website.
Thanks!
I've been having trouble getting on that website.
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2003
- RO Number
- 12212
- Messages
- 12,188
"I sold her for less than I think she is worth and far less than I have invested. "
this is probably why so many boats stay on the market for so long; "invested" is the wrong word. whatever $ you put into a boat, whether new boat, used or upgrade, restoration is intantly worth 25 to 50% less. you can't base a boat value on what you have in it or what you think it is worth...
i dont' think many owners of 10+ year old boats are upside donw on their loans, these boats are being the worst of the depreciation curve and down payment requirements are usually higher for used boats anyway. The problem is with the new boats, especially when financed with minimal down payment and bought close to inflated MSRPs...
this is probably why so many boats stay on the market for so long; "invested" is the wrong word. whatever $ you put into a boat, whether new boat, used or upgrade, restoration is intantly worth 25 to 50% less. you can't base a boat value on what you have in it or what you think it is worth...
i dont' think many owners of 10+ year old boats are upside donw on their loans, these boats are being the worst of the depreciation curve and down payment requirements are usually higher for used boats anyway. The problem is with the new boats, especially when financed with minimal down payment and bought close to inflated MSRPs...