Late 80's Vintage SR 440 Aft Cabin-- Thoughts?

A

AustinPaul

Active member
Member
Joined
May 12, 2005
RO Number
17353
Messages
1,267
Hi All- I am in the early stages of seeking out an AC or CPMY in the 40-45 range for use here in Austin. I like the layout of these particular SRs. Right now, for whatever I get, I am targeting diesels, freshwater, under covered slip, not used as a liveaboard, etc.

For diesels, most seem to agree that CATS should be avoided. I saw one listing that had new 8.1 gassers, which I'm sure would be a big improvement over the original 7.4 carbed gassers, but I still think I should stick with my preference for diesels for such a large boat. Yes?

Anyway, any known issues with these? Any experience with powering them with CATS vs Cummins vs DD (ever see them in these boats?) vs gas?

Any input is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Paul
 
Paul,

That boat began as the 410AC, it was later renamed the 415AC, then finally the 440AC. There are minor differences in layout and options, but they're built on the same hull. LOA is over 45'

Yes, Detroits were offered, but they're rare. I've never seen one with Cummins. The only one I've ever seen with DD's is my neighbor. It has 6v-53's, which are simply too small for this boat. That said, it's a lot of boat for gas engines too, but the gassers cruise at the same speed. Yes, they use more gas, but have nowhere near the threat of HUGE BILLS when rebuilds/replacement and maintenance time comes.

I'll go on record for NOT agreeing that CATS should be avoided. I wonder if you're thinking of 3116's and 3126's, which had well-documented issues during a production run that was way beyond the run of this boat. Caterpillars in the 4XXAC's are 3208's, which when treated well, will treat their owners well. They're also a much better match for the bulk of a boat this big. I don't for a MINUTE believe SeaRay's claim of 23,000 lbs. of displacement - even with gas engines, I think that's a few K's lower than reality. The aft-hardtop was an option, so MAYBE a 410AC with gas and no hardtop was close to that, but let's just say this acts, feels and performs like a heavy boat.

A lower helm was another option. Not an attractive one if you ask me, but to each his own.

You could also get a washer-dryer in the master stateroom. It consumes the best locker though, and it requires partial destruction of the doorway to remove/replace it.

I've read in detail 2 different survey reports on the 410, and the faults found were almost without exception due to maintenance, not construction issues. They found some moisture near the fwd hatch, but everything else was rock-solid on a 20 year old example that has lived a somewhat challenged life.

btw, I think the hardtop is a valuable option. It's very solidly built and just makes sense for this style boat.

The galley accepts a large household-style fridge, but of course that requires constant genny use or an inverter when away from the dock. The genny is in the fwd port corner of the ER, and at least in early models, a soundshield wasn't standard! It would drive me nuts!

Cabinetry and trim is nicely done, and isn't as dated as you'd think it might be. There's plenty of room for TV and audio upgrades.

Visibility from the helm is perfect fwd, and reasonable aft, even w/ the hardtop. Exhaust exits on the sides. This is a quiet boat at cruise and at idle, unless you're in the cabin. (the access hatches above the ER SEEMS solid and insulated when you lift them, but you'll have a different impression after you hit a few starter buttons)

Back to power... if you're going to cruise her a lot and you plan to have the cash on hand to address costly maintenance issues, then you'll want to find one with healthy 3208's. If this is going to be a floating cottage that makes infrequent short trips, then you might get a lot more boat if you include gassers in your search.
 
quote:
Originally posted by SLW

Paul,

...That said, it's a lot of boat for gas engines too, but the gassers cruise at the same speed. Yes, they use more gas, but have nowhere near the threat of HUGE BILLS when rebuilds/replacement and maintenance time comes.

I'll go on record for NOT agreeing that CATS should be avoided. I wonder if you're thinking of 3116's and 3126's, which had well-documented issues during a production run that was way beyond the run of this boat. Caterpillars in the 4XXAC's are 3208's, which when treated well, will treat their owners well. They're also a much better match for the bulk of a boat this big. I don't for a MINUTE believe SeaRay's claim of 23,000 lbs. of displacement - even with gas engines, I think that's a few K's lower than reality. The aft-hardtop was an option, so MAYBE a 410AC with gas and no hardtop was close to that, but let's just say this acts, feels and performs like a heavy boat.

A lower helm was another option. Not an attractive one if you ask me, but to each his own.

You could also get a washer-dryer in the master stateroom. It consumes the best locker though, and it requires partial destruction of the doorway to remove/replace it.

I've read in detail 2 different survey reports on the 410, and the faults found were almost without exception due to maintenance, not construction issues. They found some moisture near the fwd hatch, but everything else was rock-solid on a 20 year old example that has lived a somewhat challenged life.

btw, I think the hardtop is a valuable option. It's very solidly built and just makes sense for this style boat.

The galley accepts a large household-style fridge, but of course that requires constant genny use or an inverter when away from the dock. The genny is in the fwd port corner of the ER, and at least in early models, a soundshield wasn't standard! It would drive me nuts!

Cabinetry and trim is nicely done, and isn't as dated as you'd think it might be. There's plenty of room for TV and audio upgrades.

Visibility from the helm is perfect fwd, and reasonable aft, even w/ the hardtop. Exhaust exits on the sides. This is a quiet boat at cruise and at idle, unless you're in the cabin. (the access hatches above the ER SEEMS solid and insulated when you lift them, but you'll have a different impression after you hit a few starter buttons)

Back to power... if you're going to cruise her a lot and you plan to have the cash on hand to address costly maintenance issues, then you'll want to find one with healthy 3208's. If this is going to be a floating cottage that makes infrequent short trips, then you might get a lot more boat if you include gassers in your search.

Click to expand...
Hi SLW,

Wow- great input. I've looked at quite a few online and I completely agree with you on all counts. If I were doing a liveaboard (not likely with the prospect of a little one coming), I think I would actually prefer a laundromat to knock everything out in one pass.

I like the large fridge, but would have to take into consideration running the genny. Of course, at dock, it becomes a bonus. :-)

I also agree about the hardtop. I have very few without the h/t, but I would insist on having it.

I looked at the post-'90 models and found that I missed the older style booth dinette. As others have mentioned in various posts, it's so nice to face each other to eat, talk, play cards, etc. That's once of the reasons I prefer the older models.

The other reason is the master stateroom. I really like all the built-in's and wood--throughout the boat for that matter. Real wood is so classic for me and I really miss it on the ones during the era where everyone wanted laminates and white glossy finishes.

Yes-- I think you have done a good job of reminding me that I really don't need big power on this lake. We just don't go that far--and when we do, we're not in that big a hurry.

Many thanks for a real informative post SLW.

Paul
 
I’m happy to help. I was thinking about a few other things about these boats… I mentioned the fridge, but I forgot to mention one of my bigger pet peeves. The refrigerator faces AFT! It’s one of the few “what were they thinking” aspects about the 4XXAC’s. Not only wil the contents jump for freedom when you open the door, but the unit itself and it’s mounting hardware(very likely a replacement by now) is under constant stress as it fights to walk to the stern. Since you mentioned being on smaller body of water, that will hopefully be less of an issue for you.
Yeah, that big dinette is great, and it also gives easy access to a lazarette below. (not an option for storage however, in spite the the roominess)

I’ll give fairly high marks for the engine room. Primary access is as simple as lifting the center hatch and climbing down the ladder. From the center you can check engine oil, strainers and filters. When more serious work is necessary, additional hatches grant access to pretty much everything else, but you may have to slide furniture.

Inspect the seacocks. The early ones were the wrench type and were prone to seizing. (not a good feeling on a 20 year old boat!)

I agree – that master cabin is very nice. My neighbor refuses to use his stall shower though, and his reasoning is that the master head has no direct ventilation, so he finds that it introduces too much moisture. SeaRay did a good job with access panels back there. The sump (high quality, sealed) is at the foot of the bed and has it’s own access panel. The rudder posts and trim tab lines are also easily reached from a series of panels near/under the nightstand units. I would aim right for those panels when touring these boats. It’s one of those often forgotten areas that might give you a clue as to how a particular boat was maintained.

The icemaker is in the salon, just fwd of the entertainment unit. It might be more convenient to have ready access to it on the aft deck, but there’s something to be said for keeping an icemaker in an air-conditioned cabin! It’s a nice touch.

The dash is old school. Shift levers and throttles are “eh”, and there’s very little room, almost none actually, to flush mount electronics.

As I mentioned above, visibility is good, and that’s KEY in an aft-cabin. You might have to duck a little, depending on your stance, but there are no complete blindspots on this boat. The helm is also oriented to seated driving. That might take some getting used to for some people.

The salon slider windows might leak, that’s no surprise. Just look carefully around them to see if someone let them leak too much, for too long.

You’ll also notice that these boats came with either 50A, or dual 30A service. I’m not sure what dictated it, if anything. Maybe it was just an option? If you haven’t priced 50A cords lately, just make sure the seller includes every cord and adapter he has!
 
SLW-- I was multi-tasking when I typed my last message and realized that I missed a few things.

One, was that I highlighted your comment about the lower helm. Ugh! is about all I can say to those--virtually in any criuser of this size. Of course, that's easy for me to say as we have extremely mild winters here in Austin.

Yes, the bridge is merely "meh" to me. In many aspects, I really prefer the Wellcraft 46' CPMY. I like the layout, but miss the wood.

Funny that you mentioned the fridge facing aft--I would have never thought of that! I wondered why they flip-flopped the galley later, sometime after '90. Perhaps some sort of strap could be affixed from the top of the fridge to somewhere on the bulkhead behind it?

I noted the icemaker in the salon, as opposed to the aft lounge area--but we all know how icemakers can behave in the heat of the day. Can anyone say "block ice"?

This is great input. Nothing, so far, has scared me off, what seems to be a LOT of boat for short money. I'm even thinking that if I found one for around $100k, and had to re-power it, that I would have a whole lot of boat for a reasonable investment.

It's nice that we can get away with a lot more (or less) on an inland lake. Of course, there aren't too many options for a long cruise into new areas; just the occasional new hidden cove.

Thanks,
Paul
 
That's a good point Paul, I'm so centered on the 410 that I haven't differentiated between the 410 and the 440. While an aft-facing fridge is a "DOH" as far as boat design goes, I actually prefer the layout of the earlier galleys (they seem roomier, and aren't as cut off from the salon) and of course, much prefer the dinette as opposed to the 440's "L" couch.

I thought that the lower helm on the 410 and 415 took up less space than it did on the 440's. I wasn't sure though, so I just did a quick websearch and couldn't find ANY with the lower helm! I guess it's not much of an issue - it's less common than I thought. (there's a 410AC on the next pier w/ a lower helm, so I guess that made me think they're more common than they really are)
 
One other thought,
Since you live on what appears to be a small inland lake, would be the availability of Diesel Fuel.. some folks would prefer diesels, but a lot of the smaller inland lakes - marinas don't all have diesel available.

No doubt, I assume it's already been considered in your research...
 
I boat with twp 420s frequently. The major complaints are difficult boarding because of the high side gate and "fins" outboard of the swim platform, awkward salon layout leaving no place to lounge about reading and a smaller than queen size bed in the master.
 
quote:
Originally posted by DogDaze

One other thought,
Since you live on what appears to be a small inland lake, would be the availability of Diesel Fuel.. some folks would prefer diesels, but a lot of the smaller inland lakes - marinas don't all have diesel available.

No doubt, I assume it's already been considered in your research...

Click to expand...
Thanks-- yes, you're absolutely right about that. I think there is one place left on this lake for diesel. The good news is that it's not hard at all to get it trucked in--and save quite a load in the process. That's what some friends of mine do. They'll usually get two of them to go together and take about a whole load, or at least meet the minimum.

Thanks,
Paul
 
quote:
Originally posted by pdecat

I boat with twp 420s frequently. The major complaints are difficult boarding because of the high side gate and "fins" outboard of the swim platform, awkward salon layout leaving no place to lounge about reading and a smaller than queen size bed in the master.

Click to expand...
All good things to consider. My fiance immediately asked about getting things on and off the boat. Definitely harder than with our express. I'm thinking that it shouldn't be too bad with anyplace around here that we choose to slip the boat as we back into our slip and enter from the swim platform. Rafting up would be another matter entirely. :-(
 
Paul, as I noted in the other thread, the 420AC is a much later model than the 410/415/440AC's. They have no more in common than aft-cabins from two different brands.

The early models have a vertical ladder from the swim platfrom to the aft deck. You wouldn't want to board the boat that way on a regular basis. Our neighbors have a folding staircase and use it to board from the side. If you have a finger dock, you'll find that to be pretty easy.

The 420AC, aside from being 10 years newer than what you were looking for, DOES have molded steps from the platform up to the deck.
 
yes if you board from directly aft it is easy, with any other docking they are the most awkward of all the boats we cruise with, well except for sail boats. :)
 
quote:
Originally posted by pdecat

yes if you board from directly aft it is easy, with any other docking they are the most awkward of all the boats we cruise with, well except for sail boats. :)

Click to expand...
Actually, as we have seen with some boats, and as SLW pointed out, there are two things I need to think about.

1. Certain swim platforms that are closer to the water, make for a long step down from the dock; almost too long, especially if you are carrying anything. Then, like SLW mentioned, you would have to turnaround and climb the ladder to the aft deck. Does sound like steps from the finger piers directly onto the aft deck or sidedeck are the solution.

2. I was noting that most I am looking at (both SR and Carver <which I am already starting to like better>) have the older style swim platforms with no wings. Wouldn't that make rafting and getting lined-up fairly straightforward?

p.s. Wow- those Carvers appear to have great engine rooms! I could stand up and turnaround in-between the engines! The only tough spots appear to be spark plug access to the outer aft sides?

Thanks,
Paul
 
Paul: there are several common dock setups and IMO a boat should work well with them all. You may not forever go to only one dock. I have newer seen a swim platform that was too high for a dock though. Too low for other than floating docks is common.
 
quote:
Originally posted by pdecat

Paul: there are several common dock setups and IMO a boat should work well with them all. You may not forever go to only one dock. I have newer seen a swim platform that was too high for a dock though. Too low for other than floating docks is common.

Click to expand...
Bruce, our marinas on this lake are essentially the same--just a few minor differences in materials and construction, and maybe a few inches higher/lower, but they all float and have full length finger piers. That's why I could see getting comfortable with both aft and side entry.

Thanks,
Paul
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top