Mercruiser Starter Question

Thought I replied but my tablet seems to let me type but not actually post...
This is a pic of a "Delco" type starter
41yx0M2LLsL._AA160_.jpg

And here's a PMGR starter
519waUR2GOL._AA160_.jpg

PMGR is $55 on Amazon. Notice how small the motor portion of the PMGR is vs. the Delco, and the screws in the Delco that secure the Field Windings in place within the motor shell. PMGR is smaller because:
1. The Permanent Magnets "PM" part of PMGR are much more compact than Windings
2. The Gear Reduction "GR" part mean that the motor CAN be smaller because it winds up higher then is geared down by a planetary gearset in the front of the motor. This is the Amazon link to the PMGR which is probably what you'd use
http://www.amazon.com/MERCRUISER-4-3L-MARINE-STARTER-1998-UP/dp/B002TISG16/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1388263615&sr=8-2&keywords=mercruiser+starter It's from DB Electric, recommended by many.
The Delco pic is for a different application, shown only to illustrate the size (and Weight!!!) of that type. The Fields, Field Housing, and Armature are all much heavier. Armature alone probably weighs close to a complete PMGR.
Our Merc in Signature is 1996, still has original PMGR after cleaning up a sticky drive. 1300+ hours.
Hy refers to "High Torque" starter. This is another name for PMGR.
 
clearly I misunderstood. it is not jamming but disengaging. That could be a bad gear drive clutch or weak solenoid.

But somewhere in the dark past I think I ran into something like that caused by low current drop out of the solenoid. Do check all connections and the battery. but I really don't remember the details. Long away and far ago it was.
 
j-d and I agree. It sounds like your Bendix. Upgrade your starter and you should be OK. Hy
 
There's a home-brew Bendix Test:

Starter on a firm surface you can stand on

Booster Cables, a Battery, 2-ft or so piece of 2x4 and of course, the Starter

Stand on Starter, Connect Boosters, Spin up the Starter

Jam 2x4 into the Drive

Good Drive will Chew and Smoke the 2x4

Bad Drive will Stop and Starter continue to run

Problem is you don't want to be testing the starter in a seaway with a ship bearing down on you. Suggest changing the Starter...

As I recall RickD just ordered a PMGR recently. He might have some input.

I remember R&R mine. The bolt nearest the Flywheel is right against a sheet metal cover. If you're using a 3/8" drive socket set (9/16" maybe 14mm, I forget) you can force the socket up and onto the bolt head.

New Bolts if any question about their condition. If you find them loose, suggest replacing.
 
OK, I'll try one last time to try and explain what's going on. Maybe someone will be interested enough to ask questions or need more of an explanations to understand what's going on.

The clunking most likely eliminates the bendix gear being bad. Most likely it's a loose (or mis-aligned) starter. If you think you can jiggle a 20lb starter with one hand, you'd be mistaken.

So lets try to explain what happens when a starter is loose. The bendix gear is pushed out to engage the flywheel but immediately is forced back, there by bendine the linkage that extend the bendix gear. From this point on, with a bent solenoid linkage, the bendix gear will never fully engage properly. Even if the starter is tightened back up. The bendix gear will only extend as far as the bent linkage will allow and may not be fully engaging. This may end up being an ongoing problem until the starter is replaced. If you understand what's going on, you can save $150 by straightening the linkage yourself.

Another bit of useful info in case you don't have the right starter mounting bolt. Merc (and only merc) makes an inner mounting bolt with a 1" long head. This makes for easier locating as well as loosening and tightening. I've saved a few over the years just incase. I'd also be curious if Merc still supplies this bolt with their engine package.
 
quote:
Originally posted by jtybt15

OK, I'll try one last time to try and explain what's going on. Maybe someone will be interested enough to ask questions or need more of an explanations to understand what's going on.

The clunking most likely eliminates the bendix gear being bad. Most likely it's a loose (or mis-aligned) starter. If you think you can jiggle a 20lb starter with one hand, you'd be mistaken.

So lets try to explain what happens when a starter is loose. The bendix gear is pushed out to engage the flywheel but immediately is forced back, there by bendine the linkage that extend the bendix gear. From this point on, with a bent solenoid linkage, the bendix gear will never fully engage properly. Even if the starter is tightened back up. The bendix gear will only extend as far as the bent linkage will allow and may not be fully engaging. This may end up being an ongoing problem until the starter is replaced. If you understand what's going on, you can save $150 by straightening the linkage yourself.

Another bit of useful info in case you don't have the right starter mounting bolt. Merc (and only merc) makes an inner mounting bolt with a 1" long head. This makes for easier locating as well as loosening and tightening. I've saved a few over the years just incase. I'd also be curious if Merc still supplies this bolt with their engine package.

Click to expand...


Charlie, thanks for this. I haven't had any maintenance done on the boat for several years, so am guessing that the starter will just become loose over time? What you are saying makes sense regarding the bending of the Bendix. I guess over time the bolts that hold the starter in place will eventually loosen?? Is this something that should be checked annually (get a socket on them and tighten)??
 
The bendix doesn't bend and I've never seen a chipped pinion gear on the bendix. The bendix is a single direction gear.

Starters doesn't usually come loose...but it can. There's tons of force exerted on the pinion gear if it doesn't cleanly engage the flywheel which can chip the (replaceable)ring gear on the flywheel or loosen the threads in the mounting bolts.

Some starters don't mount correctly against the block. If it's too tight or too loose, it'll eat up the ring gear. The shims align the starter, and so the pinion gear, away from the flywheel. You hear of flywheel ring gears getting chipped or only engaging at a certain spot, that's the starter having been mounted at the wrong distance.

The tell tale you mentioned was the clunk. That's something that can happen if the bendix gear isn't engaging right and sometimes gets wedged against the flywheel. It usually disengages itself though.

Te spinning (whirring)starter is the bendix gear not engaging and the starter it just spinning. The starter engaging and backing out and whirring can happen if the starter is loose or the solenoid linkage gets bent. What happens is the solenoid kicks the bendix out all the way but because the linkage isn't holding the gear out in it's fully extended position, it allows the bendix to slide back and disengage. It can also be worn pins that fit in the collar of some types of starters. It functions exactly like shifting forks in a tranny.

All these things require the starter to be removed to inspect. All these things can be fixed without buying a new starter.
 
I'm thankful that the PMGR on our MerC is NOT shimmed! Just bolts up. Challenge enough, those two bolts, let alone a shim. Shim has a notch in one end and a "handle" by the hole in the other end, in the hope we can start the far bolt, tuck the shim in, then get the outer bolt through Starter, Shim, and into Block. Shim looks like:
02338x-001.jpg

This came from this webpage of Dorman products from O'Reilly Auto Parts. http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Starter+Bolts+%26+Shims+(Universal)/N0277/C0330.oap Be sure to get the exact bolts, just wanted you to see how many there are, and that they should be available at the local auto supply.
It'd be a good idea to check the bolts and see if they're snug before you pull the starter.
Don't trifle with those bolts! Friend just installed a reman 454. Out on a test run. Ran fine but stalled on approach back to the ramp. Went to crank it and starter just spun. Found it hanging from the cable and bolt broken off In The Block. That's an up-from-the-bottom drill/extract job. I have little doubt the engine will have to be removed from its mounts at a minimum.
!YO! Charlie! How Ya Doin'? I've heard of those special bolts but never actually seen one. Our setup is OEM from 1996 and does not have one. Would sure be nice, though. Just thinkin' - I carry a spare starter on board along with wrench to fit. Should probably get a spare pair of bolts to save bilge-groping out on the water.
 
quote:
Originally posted by j-d

I'm thankful that the PMGR on our MerC is NOT shimmed! Just bolts up. Challenge enough, those two bolts, let alone a shim. Shim has a notch in one end and a "handle" by the hole in the other end, in the hope we can start the far bolt, tuck the shim in, then get the outer bolt through Starter, Shim, and into Block. Shim looks like:
02338x-001.jpg

This came from this webpage of Dorman products from O'Reilly Auto Parts. http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Starter+Bolts+%26+Shims+(Universal)/N0277/C0330.oap Be sure to get the exact bolts, just wanted you to see how many there are, and that they should be available at the local auto supply.
It'd be a good idea to check the bolts and see if they're snug before you pull the starter.
Don't trifle with those bolts! Friend just installed a reman 454. Out on a test run. Ran fine but stalled on approach back to the ramp. Went to crank it and starter just spun. Found it hanging from the cable and bolt broken off In The Block. That's an up-from-the-bottom drill/extract job. I have little doubt the engine will have to be removed from its mounts at a minimum.
!YO! Charlie! How Ya Doin'? I've heard of those special bolts but never actually seen one. Our setup is OEM from 1996 and does not have one. Would sure be nice, though. Just thinkin' - I carry a spare starter on board along with wrench to fit. Should probably get a spare pair of bolts to save bilge-groping out on the water.

Click to expand...


Would I need to shim the PMGR starter or should it align correctly with the correct bolts? Should I replace the bolts on the starter no matter what, or use what I already have if they appear to be ok? I don't want to mess with shimming anything especially since the starter is not located in a friendly place!!
 
I haven't seen any reason to shim any starter without cause. A too tight starter will make more noise. Or it can wedge against the flywheel and not disengage. The engine can be heard spinning the starter but it's hard to hear. It's also possible the solenoid can burn and weld it's contacts so the starter is always engaged and running. If you turn the engine off, the starter will continue to turn the engine over. Gotta pull the battery cable.
 
PULL THE SPARK PLUGS FIRST
You can change all the starters you want. Spin a new starter against hydro-lock and you need a new bendix in the new starter.
 
SJK: I'm almost at a loss for words. You haven't done any maintenace on your boat for a few years? Why? Boats require maintenance every year. So, let's start with the current problem and then move on to regular maintenance. Pull the plugs and check for water in the cylinders. If there's any sign of water, you've got to find the source and fix it, if possible. When was the last time the manifolds and risers were replaced? Are they leaking into the engine? If you're lucky and there's no sign of water intrusion (no hydrolock), replace all the plugs with new ones, properly gapped and with anti-seize on the threads. Next pull the starter and check it. The general consensus is that your problem is probably caused by a bad starter, but none of us can really tell because we're not there. We're only going by your description. If the starter is bad, replace it, along with a set of new knurled starter bolts. Hopefully then, your immediate problem will be fixed. Now we come to maintenance. Get yourself manuals for your engine our your outdrive. Get the Mercruiser ones, not the after-market ones. They're probably available as downloads. Read the sections on maintenance, daily, monthly, and annually. Start doing the things which should be done, checking each element of your engine and outdrive operation. If it's beyond your ability, find a good marine mechanic. If you were nearby, I'd come by and give you a hand, but I don't know where you are. Since it's near-freezing here in NY and you're still boating, I assume you're somewhere down south. Good luck and get to work! Hy
 
quote:
Originally posted by littlebookworm

SJK: I'm almost at a loss for words. You haven't done any maintenace on your boat for a few years? Why? Boats require maintenance every year. So, let's start with the current problem and then move on to regular maintenance. Pull the plugs and check for water in the cylinders. If there's any sign of water, you've got to find the source and fix it, if possible. When was the last time the manifolds and risers were replaced? Are they leaking into the engine? If you're lucky and there's no sign of water intrusion (no hydrolock), replace all the plugs with new ones, properly gapped and with anti-seize on the threads. Next pull the starter and check it. The general consensus is that your problem is probably caused by a bad starter, but none of us can really tell because we're not there. We're only going by your description. If the starter is bad, replace it, along with a set of new knurled starter bolts. Hopefully then, your immediate problem will be fixed. Now we come to maintenance. Get yourself manuals for your engine our your outdrive. Get the Mercruiser ones, not the after-market ones. They're probably available as downloads. Read the sections on maintenance, daily, monthly, and annually. Start doing the things which should be done, checking each element of your engine and outdrive operation. If it's beyond your ability, find a good marine mechanic. If you were nearby, I'd come by and give you a hand, but I don't know where you are. Since it's near-freezing here in NY and you're still boating, I assume you're somewhere down south. Good luck and get to work! Hy

Click to expand...

Hy - I should have been more specific - I meant unscheduled maintenance. The boat gets taken care of and I do have a regular mechanic for the things I cannot perform. I do have the original OEM manuals and pretty much follow the scheduled maintenance on these, but maybe not 100% to their recommendations. I will check the plugs for water and the starter is definitely getting replaced come warmer weather. I live in Georgia and the boat is on a lift on Lake Hartwell on the SC/GA border. She's never been in salt water and she has never spent an overnight in the water...always gets put in her cradle at night. Thanks for your response and I appreciate your passion for keeping things properly maintained! I do understand the importance of this.
 
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