I'm sure this is going to show a huge lack of mechanical knowledge on my part, but is it possible to change an open system to a closed system in a gas boat? The reason I'm asking is that the possibility exists that I could eventually move from a fresh water environment (Lake Michigan) to a salt water environment (Florida). Obviously, most folks down there run diesels anyway, but just wondering if it would be more cost effective to sell my boat here and buy another down there if we ever moved to Florida or if it would make more sense to modify my boat if that's possible. I know Carvers aren't ideal for the ocean anyway, but this would be on the Gulf which, on a good day, is no worse than Lake Michigan (which can also get really bad in its own right). I also know that you can run open systems in salt water; I just wouldn't want to over the long term.
Open Systems
- Thread starter rich356
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There are full and half kits available for conversion that can be retrofitted. George generally does not reccomend conversion after 150 hours, others may have a different opinion.
I thought the 150 hour bit was if you had been running in SW and then were going to change. Rich356 has been running in FW. I would think the conversion would be a good idea. I wonder what the percentage of boats in Florida are diesel? Luck. Dale
Yes, you can convert to closed if the boat has been running in fresh water. The kits are here
http://www.boatfix.com/freshkits.asp
http://www.boatfix.com/freshkits.asp
Looks like I have too many hours on the boat already though. I have about 305 hours. For fresh water kits it says 250 hours on the page. Oh well, not a big deal. Don't even know for sure if I'm going to move there anytime in the near future.
Right, but if you look at the link that Les posted it says this at the bottom of the page:
"If you own an older boat. You may not be able to install a new Fresh Water Cooling System. The rule of thumb is One hundred and fifty hours of salt water use. And about two hundred and fifty hours of fresh water use. After that. It is probably too late to install a fresh water cooling system without severe damage to your engine. You can perform a quick check: Remove the thermostat housing cover. Then look inside to check for any sign of scaling rust. If you see rust build up. It is probably too late. Engine Blocks are made from Cast Iron. And Cast Iron is Porous! Salt will embed itself in the cast iron and then, if you add antifreeze, the coolant will become thick and cause your engine to overheat. After a year or two of fresh water use. The Cast Iron will just erode and the pressure will cause blown head gaskets. Usually between number 3 and number 5 cylinders."
"If you own an older boat. You may not be able to install a new Fresh Water Cooling System. The rule of thumb is One hundred and fifty hours of salt water use. And about two hundred and fifty hours of fresh water use. After that. It is probably too late to install a fresh water cooling system without severe damage to your engine. You can perform a quick check: Remove the thermostat housing cover. Then look inside to check for any sign of scaling rust. If you see rust build up. It is probably too late. Engine Blocks are made from Cast Iron. And Cast Iron is Porous! Salt will embed itself in the cast iron and then, if you add antifreeze, the coolant will become thick and cause your engine to overheat. After a year or two of fresh water use. The Cast Iron will just erode and the pressure will cause blown head gaskets. Usually between number 3 and number 5 cylinders."
some times we get caught up in theory if it were me i would acid flush the system and convert. Your boat has been out of the water for as much time as it has been in. i don’t want to argue with George but rather than new engines, I would try it and carefully watch. Rebuilding is primarily not in the cooling area so that IMO is not a help.
The real issue is why move your boat? you are probably ready for something different anyway and if you are going to do longer trips on the gulf diesel is preferred. Big gas boats dont sell well here.
The real issue is why move your boat? you are probably ready for something different anyway and if you are going to do longer trips on the gulf diesel is preferred. Big gas boats dont sell well here.
IMO, knowlegable boaters in the hot gulf waters and sun would rather buy a used boat from the colder northern climates and fresh water lakes.
Pop out a couple freeze plugs and take a look at the condition of inner water jacket.
Pop out a couple freeze plugs and take a look at the condition of inner water jacket.
Bruce - We actually really love our boat, and you're right about it being out of the water as much as in. It's been out of the water more really, and the engines have been used even less obviously (300 hours on a '99). So it probably would be worth it to try. Another thing for us to consider is that if we move to Florida, we'd like to get a house in Cape Coral with a dock and Gulf access. So we really probably wouldn't need a big boat like ours because we wouldn't be sleeping on it as much. I'm just trying to look at it from all angles though. I could probably price our boat to sell quickly and just buy something else down there. I was thinking that a used (like 2004) Sea Ray 300 Sundancer would do the job nicely! Plus I love the blue hull that some have! But if it made economic/mechanical sense to keep our current boat we would obviously do that.
Charlie is right northern boats are a selling point here yet the cost of moving them and the undesirability of gas vs available diesel in a boat of that size presents a selling problem.
Rich:
If all you want to do are day trips then your boat is too big and enclosed for the area. A center console, open or mostly open boat will be much more useful. There are many places to go for overnight as everything from Tarpon springs to Stuart are within an easy run from that area but if that won’t be your style then a boat suited for that is the wrong boat. Since there are low bridges and locks in your chosen housing area a lower boat also reduces potential housing costs significantly IF you are willing to give up unlimited height gulf access what choosing your house. As with many things, there are a lot of tradeoffs to consider, open boats use a lot less fuel as you are not dragging all that living area all over the place.
I generally don’t consider moving boat to a very different area unless I am certain that would be the perfect boat and last one I will ever buy. You need to consider what your real boating expectations are then make an appropriate boat decision.
Rich:
If all you want to do are day trips then your boat is too big and enclosed for the area. A center console, open or mostly open boat will be much more useful. There are many places to go for overnight as everything from Tarpon springs to Stuart are within an easy run from that area but if that won’t be your style then a boat suited for that is the wrong boat. Since there are low bridges and locks in your chosen housing area a lower boat also reduces potential housing costs significantly IF you are willing to give up unlimited height gulf access what choosing your house. As with many things, there are a lot of tradeoffs to consider, open boats use a lot less fuel as you are not dragging all that living area all over the place.
I generally don’t consider moving boat to a very different area unless I am certain that would be the perfect boat and last one I will ever buy. You need to consider what your real boating expectations are then make an appropriate boat decision.
Bruce - I don't really want an open center console. Doesn't work as well with a very mobile 1+ year old, plus I want air conditioning and the ability to sleep and cook on it if I want to. Gas, though not fun to spend a lot of money on, isn't so much of a concern to me. I already have a large, gas guzzling monster (318 gallons between 3 tanks) so I'm used to it for better or for worse. I mentioned the 300 Sundancer because it is much smaller than my current boat. It's about 10 feet shorter overall, 3 inches less beam and I'm not sure of the height, but it looks to be much lower. My 356 needs 17 1/2 feet clearance with the masthead light up; I'd be willing to guess the Sea Ray would fit under just about any bridge. I just think it would be a good overall boat for what we'd want to do down there. The reason I ask about my boat is that I already have it, so closing off the system and moving it might work out to save money rather than buying a another boat and paying sales tax again. This is all putting the cart somewhat before the horse anyway. The first thing I need to do is find a job down there! BTW, there are definitely Carver 356's down there already with gas engines because there are about 6 or 7 listed for sale on yachtworld. All have more hours, less electronics and are more expesive than my boat was listed for. So if I were to sell it there I would think it would be more attractive for a lot of reasons than the current boats listed. I wonder if they have closed systems already though.
Just wanted to add, looking on yachtworld at what's for sale down there I see a ton of gas boats. I would have thought there would be more diesels, but at least in the smaller cruiser class the vast majority are gas.
Just wanted to add, looking on yachtworld at what's for sale down there I see a ton of gas boats. I would have thought there would be more diesels, but at least in the smaller cruiser class the vast majority are gas.
Rich: price sells and people buy what they can afford. this area is no different than any other in that during the last 10 years or so there was an explosion of new boaters without the experience with boats. Many are smarter now. 35' if the boat not too heavy is a where I consider the gas to diesel transition point. regardless you csn go slow in that boat and probably get better mileage than any diesel going fast. I really dont like the dancers because of the cave like interior. that is what gets to many owners as well. Your on e year old wont be one for long and soon will wangt to help dabby drive the boat.
Rich,
If you buy/build a house on a sailboat access canal in Cape Coral you can always put in a lift, store your boat out of the water, and flush it after each use. I moved my 32 Mariner from Lake Michigan to Cape Coral ten years ago and did that. Back then the dock and lift cost $16,000 and transporting the boat was $3,300. Of course, that was ten years ago and you have a larger boat than I did. If you get a house/lot that requires going under a bridge (usually 12 foot or less clearance) be aware that you will also be spending alot more time idling along through the canal system. I have friends that spend 45 minutes each way just getting out to the river. It takes me six minutes to get to the river. Also, the closer to the river or Gulf the faster your land appreciates. The first lot I purchased ten years ago for $47,000 and put a $200,000 house on is currently on the market for $839,000. As far as the Gulf versus Lake Michigan, I have never (short of a hurricane) seen the Gulf any rougher than what I went through on Lake Michigan. It seems like most people here don't have Carvers with diesels until you get above 25,000 pound displacement. Good luck finding a job here. Lots of folks bring a job with them from up north.
If you buy/build a house on a sailboat access canal in Cape Coral you can always put in a lift, store your boat out of the water, and flush it after each use. I moved my 32 Mariner from Lake Michigan to Cape Coral ten years ago and did that. Back then the dock and lift cost $16,000 and transporting the boat was $3,300. Of course, that was ten years ago and you have a larger boat than I did. If you get a house/lot that requires going under a bridge (usually 12 foot or less clearance) be aware that you will also be spending alot more time idling along through the canal system. I have friends that spend 45 minutes each way just getting out to the river. It takes me six minutes to get to the river. Also, the closer to the river or Gulf the faster your land appreciates. The first lot I purchased ten years ago for $47,000 and put a $200,000 house on is currently on the market for $839,000. As far as the Gulf versus Lake Michigan, I have never (short of a hurricane) seen the Gulf any rougher than what I went through on Lake Michigan. It seems like most people here don't have Carvers with diesels until you get above 25,000 pound displacement. Good luck finding a job here. Lots of folks bring a job with them from up north.
Bruce - yup, that's what I'd consider the transition point as well, and so, it seems, does Carver. Nick - 12 feet huh? That would be a big problem. Even with the light down I wouldn't make it with my boat so I'd have to be on a sailboat access canal. That would also mean, as you pointed out, more expensive real estate. I'd probaby be looking to spend more in the $500,000 to $600,000 range which would obviously mean I'd have to be further from the river (how much farther do you think?). Sounds like my boat decision is getting made for me! For the record, since I wouldn't be spending all weekend on my boat like I do now, the lower cabin of the Sundancer wouldn't be a problem. Don't get me wrong, I love the headroom and cockpit that my boat now has. I just don't think I'd need it there. I hear ya about jobs down there Nick. Slim pickins at best. My wife runs her own company that she could do from there so it's really just me that needs to figure it out. My current job is not portable unfortunately. Good to know about the Gulf. Lake Michigan, as you obviosly know, can get pretty bad. No reason to go out there when it is bad though. Thankfully this weekend looks really good!
Hey Rich. You can buy my 5200 sq. ft. home. It's currently on the market for 2 million. Actually, there are houses available in my neighborhood that are in your price range and sailboat access. The question is how many bedrooms and how much square footage are you looking for? The real estate market has had a major correction here after years of skyrocketing property values so there are deals to be had. I would stay away from powerboat access (behind bridges) as it often means you are going to be spending more time in the canals at idle speed. Also, you would be limited in the kinds of boats you could accomodate behind your house so you better be sure an express cruiser is what you want. 12 feet is the most clearance you will find in Cape Coral. Some bridges have less than that. Only nine percent of Cape Coral waterfront properties are sailboat access.
I moved here with a 1988 32 Mariner and later downsided to a 2000 Chris Craft 308 when my business kept me from longer range cruising. I am in the process of moving up to a 1993 350 Aft Cabin because I have more time now and want to be comfortable while doing longer range cruises.
I moved here with a 1988 32 Mariner and later downsided to a 2000 Chris Craft 308 when my business kept me from longer range cruising. I am in the process of moving up to a 1993 350 Aft Cabin because I have more time now and want to be comfortable while doing longer range cruises.
Nick - Just $2 mill? No problem, I'll take it! Yeah right! We'd be looking for about 3 bedrooms 2 & 1/2 baths preferably with a pool (I'm thinking about half the size of your house). I posted a response to your post about the 350 on the Carver forum BTW. We have relatives that live in Cape Coral (and in Naples), and I believe they are about 2 bridges in. Obviously the closer to the Gulf the better, but I would be willing to get a smaller boat for a bigger house. Again, that's why the 300 Sundancer appeals to me. The family could stay on it over night if we went somewhere, but it would also work for shorter cruises. Plus, I could probably get slightly used one for what I could sell my boat for. Lot's to work out here though obviously!
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In terms of the bridges, I have 1 bridge and I'm only 5 minutes to the river. There is a number of older homes in the Yacht Club area that are 20-30 minutes in that are still direct access and will cost you less than 500K. Don't assume that if there is a bridge you will be a long idle boat ride away. There is a bunch of property on the west side that can take over 1 hour of slow speed to reach the river, yet it is considered direct (no bridges) access.
Jim
Jim