Raw or fresh water

E

Edgar

Member
exMember
Joined
Jan 1, 2000
RO Number
183
Messages
62
After a lovely 12 yrs relationship my raw water head its dying. It will be miss. Im considering to replace it with new technolgy, probably the raritan vortex. I have few questions.
1)Why some people prefer to use their limited fresh water supply instead of using the unlimited raw water?
2) What are the pros and cons of fresh vs raw?
3) asuming I go the fresh water route is there any posibility the tank can been contaminated?
4) Do the poop that exit the raritan vortex its already been shread or do I need an aditional macerator to do this?
5)Its seems like boatfix do not sell it?

Thanks in advance, Edgar
 
I would only use fresh. I have one of each and switching over this winter. The fresh water head uses very little water. The raw water has has a terrible smell after sitting all week. I believe the new head has a back flow preventer attached. I am still waiting for that new Raritian to come out with the square back. No other macerator is needed. I'm sure Boat Fix carries them.
 
A macerator will be needed to empty your holding tank over board. None would be needed if you are past the limit and dump the Elegance overboard. You can now order the Elegance with dual fresh and raw water flush. I believe it is as simple as throwing a switch and perhaps opening your raw water intake. I see no way you could contaminate your fresh water supply with the Elegance. I had tried many heads before finally getting the 4 button deluxe controller and Elegance freshwater head. NOTHING clogs it or beats it's performance in my opinion. I have a water maker so I in reality won't run out of freshwater. I do agree that raw water heads can get critter smell. I have absolutely -0- smell with the fresh water head. However I wish I had the dual Elegance but its only because I like backup systems. You could always dump a bucket of raw water in the head and flush it in an emergency. The Elegance has a empty only button on my controller. I also use a Hold-N-Treat with a PuraSan another great addition to the boat.

Bill
 
Same here. My old raw water head was giving up the ghost this spring so I switched to the Raritan Elegance fresh water flush. It was a GREAT move. First of all the head is flawless and will chew up and flush darn near anything. It uses very little fresh water and has never been an issue for me at all and I only carry 50 gallons of water.

Absolutely no critter order!

Bob
 
I think the Raritan is a great replacement idea--especially with Vic's amazing support on this site; though he knows about all of them.

I had the typical raw water flush head from Jabsco. I really wanted to go with the Raritan when I went to fresh water, but my friend and service guy felt much more comfortable in installing the exact same type head that had come out of there. I know the Raritan replacement is a no-brainer, but I think they're both good heads, so I didn't have an issue with it. We installed a t-fitting off the sink's cold water line in the head. The entire remove/install seemed to be fairly easy for the guy at the shop.

It quieted the head by about 80%. Vic gives spot-on advice when he says that it is the intake impeller that makes those raw water heads so noisy. Of course, he's right. We really like the Jabsco Quiet Flush (full replacement, not conversion kit). You can standard flush, empty only, or fill only. It doesn't use much water and remains odor-free in a way that the raw water never did.

As for the dreaded and often mentioned back-flow concern, I have never quite understood that. It's not like the waste in the bowl is very likely to back all the way up into the the flushing outlets around the rim of the head. Even if you had a clogged head, it would be quite a feat for any waste to back all the way past the t-fitting and down into your freshwater tank. Vic can explain better, but it is something I have never been remotely concerned about. Plus, you should hear that solenoid on that intake valve!

Good luck. Freshwater heads are great and feel like a luxury upgrade that's more akin your toilet at home.
 
Edgar, there are two primary reasons for converting your head system to flush with pressurized fresh water:

1) Smell and staining of the bowl from the outside water is eliminated. The murky, green marina water that lays in the bottom of a marine toilet that uses raw outside water for flushing tends to stink after a while, as well as stain the inside of the toilet bowl. Plus, you can draw in other unwanted things along with your flush water, such as minnows, baby mussels, bits of vegetation such as eel grass. Also, plastic bags, and all sorts of things. If they were alive when you sucked them in, they won't be alive for long - and they'll begin to stink! Those critters, along with eel grass and other vegetation are trapped inside the hollow rim at the top of the toilet bowl, because they are too big to fit through the drain holes on the underside of the bowl's rim. While there, they begin to decay, and the smell sometimes is enough to run you off the boat!

2) The sound level. Electric toilets that use raw water for flushing have two pumps, one to bring in the rinse water, and the other to empty the bowl. Many of the intake pumps have rubber impellers, and make a fair amount of noise when they run. Toilets that flush with pressurized fresh water don't have the intake pump and are much more quiet during operation.

BoatFix does carry Raritan's Marine Elegance head; it just hasn't been added to the Raritan page as of yet; you can find it by running a search:

http://www.boatfix.com/shop4/store/listItems.asp?strSearch=Marine+Elegance
 
Vic, looking at all the models it is hard to tell the difference between them.
 
quote:
Originally posted by AustinPaul

...........

As for the dreaded and often mentioned back-flow concern, I have never quite understood that. It's not like the waste in the bowl is very likely to back all the way up into the the flushing outlets around the rim of the head. Even if you had a clogged head, it would be quite a feat for any waste to back all the way past the t-fitting and down into your freshwater tank. Vic can explain better, but it is something I have never been remotely concerned about. Plus, you should hear that solenoid on that intake valve!
Click to expand...


You can do your own sanitary engineering if you like but just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it can't happen.

Basically, if you lose pressure in your potable water system and draw water, you can create a vacuum that can "suck" contaminants into the potable water system.

It's called "cross contamination" and is not unique to marine water or sanitation systems. Most building codes and water departments require backflow preventers anywhere there's a chance of contaminating the water supply. Lawn irrigation systems and hose bibs are two examples.
 
Chuck, the straight back version of the Marine Elegance should be out by spring. Chief Engineer has been evaluating bowl samples from different sources, so it IS in the works.

Most of the different model numbers pertain to the type of switch used. Read this thread, and it should better explain the model numbering for you (about 2/3 the way down).

http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=120546
 
quote:
Originally posted by rawidman

quote:
Originally posted by AustinPaul

...........

As for the dreaded and often mentioned back-flow concern, I have never quite understood that. It's not like the waste in the bowl is very likely to back all the way up into the the flushing outlets around the rim of the head. Even if you had a clogged head, it would be quite a feat for any waste to back all the way past the t-fitting and down into your freshwater tank. Vic can explain better, but it is something I have never been remotely concerned about. Plus, you should hear that solenoid on that intake valve!
Click to expand...


You can do your own sanitary engineering if you like but just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it can't happen.

Basically, if you lose pressure in your potable water system and draw water, you can create a vacuum that can "suck" contaminants into the potable water system.

It's called "cross contamination" and is not unique to marine water or sanitation systems. Most building codes and water departments require backflow preventers anywhere there's a chance of contaminating the water supply. Lawn irrigation systems and hose bibs are two examples.

Click to expand...
No need for the condescending tone. I never said it could not happen. I just have no concern about it.
 
Ok, talking about cross contamination, forget if can or can't happen. Have any one that this actually happen to him or a fellow boater??
 
Happens all the time with piston-type manual toilets. When the "O" ring on the piston wears, the dirty water can easily cross over to the clean water side inside the pump. That's why a manual toilet should NEVER be connected to your potable water supply, whether it's pressurized or not. It's not as likely to happen with an electric toilet, but it can still happen, especially when the intake and discharge pumps are piggy-backed together, like on the Jabsco 37000 series raw water electric heads. If the seal between the two fails, you get cross contamination. Better to be safe than sorry...!
 
quote:
Originally posted by Vic Willman

Happens all the time with piston-type manual toilets. When the "O" ring on the piston wears, the dirty water can easily cross over to the clean water side inside the pump. That's why a manual toilet should NEVER be connected to your potable water supply, whether it's pressurized or not. It's not as likely to happen with an electric toilet, but it can still happen, especially when the intake and discharge pumps are piggy-backed together, like on the Jabsco 37000 series raw water electric heads. If the seal between the two fails, you get cross contamination. Better to be safe than sorry...!
Click to expand...

Thank You!
 
Very informative Vic, however it is impossible for the Elegance to cross contaminate to be clear about heads designed for fresh water flushing. In addition to the built in solinoid and loop I have a Jabsco one way valve on the pressurized fresh water feed to my Elegance it was there when I had the VacuFlush system so I left it in place after testing it.
Bill
 
As an example of the dangers of cross contamination, my home is supplied with water by the Charleston Water System. Anyone who has a lawn irrigations system must have an approved backflow preventer installed in the line feeding that system. Not a "check valve", an approved backflow preventer. Not only must the installation be inspected, but an annual inspection is required by certified backflow preventer tester. Fail to have it inspected and they will turn your water off.
 
quote:
Originally posted by rawidman

As an example of the dangers of cross contamination, my home is supplied with water by the Charleston Water System. Anyone who has a lawn irrigations system must have an approved backflow preventer installed in the line feeding that system. Not a "check valve", an approved backflow preventer. Not only must the installation be inspected, but an annual inspection is required by certified backflow preventer tester. Fail to have it inspected and they will turn your water off.

Click to expand...
Ron, after all these years, I had a thought that you might apologize for expressing yourself to me in the way that you did. I doubt you would do that in person, so why do it via keyboard? I'm not a newbie and you're not a newbie. Let's show some respect for one another eh? Yea, maybe I am sensitive, but I'm a pretty nice guy overall and just not used to sarcastic or rude posts around here.

Vic talked about cross-contamination on hand-pump heads. Sure, all sorts of things can happen, but CC on electric heads? Well, in my 40 years of boating, I have never heard of it with electric heads. That's why I mentioned the powerful solenoid on my head. I'm sure it has happened, just as residential sewer systems back-up and flood houses (happened to our family in the 70's). It's quite rare though.

Debate? Disagree? Sure! Be condescending? No call for that. This ain't my first rodeo either.

Deal?

EDIT: BTW, I have the utmost respect for Vic and bow to his encyclopedic knowledge of these systems and his gracious disposition.
 
Bill, the pressurized fresh water version of the Marine Elegance has a backflow preventer built into it, right from the factory. It was designed to be used in a potable water system.

My biggest concerns are when an RO has a head that was designed and built for one specific application, and after the fact, they try to convert it for a different application - without completely understanding what's involved - and without knowing what the dangers are.

So how 'bout we go on to bigger and better things, and give up on the pi$$ing contest(s)?
 
condescension and rudeness aside, i think the marine sanitation forum is the perfect place for a pi$$ing contest.
 
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