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- Dec 19, 2004
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Sea Tow strikes again
- Thread starter jaxfishgyd
- Start date
fasteddy, did you make that comment from personal experience??
Salvage awards, as the article states, are based on hundreds of years of established law. The towing company will, most likely, be awarded whatever a federal judge decides is fair compensation. That could be nothing or it could be a couple hundred K. Most likely, it will be closer to nothing if the degree of peril noted in the article is correct.
Salvage awards, as the article states, are based on hundreds of years of established law. The towing company will, most likely, be awarded whatever a federal judge decides is fair compensation. That could be nothing or it could be a couple hundred K. Most likely, it will be closer to nothing if the degree of peril noted in the article is correct.
Dal, acutally, they are not billing the owner, they are billing the boat - "In Rem." That's one interesting fact of Maritime law. Maritime liens, for example, follow the boat, regardless of who owns it. If this guy sold his boat tomorrow, the new owner would be responsible for any awards.
Steve, a couple of points. First of all, you are jumping to a whole bunch of conclusions based on a very slanted news report. In the best of circumstances, newspapers seldom get stories correct, much less those written by an obviously biased reporter. Secondly, unless you have experience in Maritime law, you are judging from a position of, forgive me but there is no other word for it, ignorance. Maritime law is entirely different than civil law. In this case, the guy, if he feels there was a degree of peril involved, is obligated to ask for a percentage of the salved value of the vessel. However, asked and awarded are too very different things.
As far as making money off someone's hard luck, there are a slew of industries engaged in that business, like auto collision shops, roofers and, of course, plumbers. That said, if in the highly unlikely event that the news story is accurate, I would agree with you - he should have just billed time and materials at the standard rate.
As far as making money off someone's hard luck, there are a slew of industries engaged in that business, like auto collision shops, roofers and, of course, plumbers. That said, if in the highly unlikely event that the news story is accurate, I would agree with you - he should have just billed time and materials at the standard rate.
That's the point exactly, Walt, and thanks for posting that. The vast majority of tow boat operators are stand up guys just trying to make a living. I wonder how many plumbers you could call to come to your home on a Sunday, then call them just before they got there, say that you fixed it yourself - thanks anyway - and not get a bill for the service call.
Regardless, I'm glad this topic came up. Every boater should have a basic understanding of Maritime law if they boat on waters so governed. If the CG has a presence there, you can assume that you are under maritime jurisdiction. What the lawyer said is basically true. Without a preexisting agreement, any vessel requiring a tow would be considered in peril and, therefore, at risk of being salvaged. However, any towing membership is a preexisting agreement. Plus the degree of peril is one of the most heavily weighed factors in considering a salvage award. A simple tow in relatively calm seas is a very low order salvage so virtually all towers would perform that job on an hourly rate basis.
Regardless, I'm glad this topic came up. Every boater should have a basic understanding of Maritime law if they boat on waters so governed. If the CG has a presence there, you can assume that you are under maritime jurisdiction. What the lawyer said is basically true. Without a preexisting agreement, any vessel requiring a tow would be considered in peril and, therefore, at risk of being salvaged. However, any towing membership is a preexisting agreement. Plus the degree of peril is one of the most heavily weighed factors in considering a salvage award. A simple tow in relatively calm seas is a very low order salvage so virtually all towers would perform that job on an hourly rate basis.
Steve, I can share a couple of dozen stories with you about Sea Tow captains who towed a burning boat from a marina so they all wouldn't burn, knowing full well he wouldn't get paid for it (boat is worthless after that) and others of equally heroic actions. So can the other companies. Again, we are dealing with an unknown set of facts here. I have no personal knowledge of exactly what happened there and I sure don't trust a newspaper reporter to get the facts straight. Rest assured, however, that no insurance company is just going to hand over funds for an unjustifiable claim and no judge will award an unreasonable salvage claim. There are volumes of case law in cases like this upon which to draw.
If this reaches court, there will be a trial like any other case where witnesses and experts will testify and be cross examined. It will take place in Federal Court, an expensive process. The Constitution of this country gives jurisdiction for Maritime disputes to the Federal court system.
If you are seriously interested in learning more, and all boaters should be, here's an excellent article by Andy Anderson:
http://www.safesea.com/boating_info/salvage/anderson/intro.html
The guy is good.
If this reaches court, there will be a trial like any other case where witnesses and experts will testify and be cross examined. It will take place in Federal Court, an expensive process. The Constitution of this country gives jurisdiction for Maritime disputes to the Federal court system.
If you are seriously interested in learning more, and all boaters should be, here's an excellent article by Andy Anderson:
http://www.safesea.com/boating_info/salvage/anderson/intro.html
The guy is good.
That is true, Tom - but the Navy can claim salvage.
Steve, I'm glad you read that stuff. It should be required reading for every boat. Just one point of clarification. The degree of peril is certainly a primary consideration but there are others as well. The professionalism of the salvor is also taken into consideration. A fellow boater who happened by a sinking vessel and saved it would be entitled to a salvage award but the award would not be as large as a professional who has purchased boats and equipment designed for salvage work would receive.
The reality is that savlors do not make your insurance rates go up, they help keep them down. Instead of paying a total loss of $100K on a vessel that sunk, they may only pay a salvor $20K for saving it. The entire premise of the salvage system is based around that concept.
Steve, I'm glad you read that stuff. It should be required reading for every boat. Just one point of clarification. The degree of peril is certainly a primary consideration but there are others as well. The professionalism of the salvor is also taken into consideration. A fellow boater who happened by a sinking vessel and saved it would be entitled to a salvage award but the award would not be as large as a professional who has purchased boats and equipment designed for salvage work would receive.
The reality is that savlors do not make your insurance rates go up, they help keep them down. Instead of paying a total loss of $100K on a vessel that sunk, they may only pay a salvor $20K for saving it. The entire premise of the salvage system is based around that concept.
Silver, I'll say this again - that story is written by someone with an obvious bias. I've never seen a story accurately reported by someone who was trying to be accurate, much less one that is writting an editorial. Don't be too quick to draw conclusions. That's why there is a legal system - so all the facts get put on the table and both sides get a chance to present their stories.
Let me say this again, folks. I've got no pickle in this jar. While I did spend eight years working for Sea Tow, at this point, we don't even sell Sea Tow memberships. I'm on your side here, just trying to explain the process and keep things on an even keel. As far as the bias in the article is concerned, these statements from the article are certainly inflamatory:
Who knows precisely what communication passed between Rescue Boat 860 and the "bigger boat," a Sea Tow salvage rig strategically parked at the edge of the action.
Sea Tow doesn't own "salvage rigs" and the use of the term "strategically" certainly indicates a bias.
Not $300 or $400, the bill for your average towing nightmare, but $230,000 or more.
Towing nightmare?
Louis, meanwhile, is back on the water. He spends 1,800 hours a year on the high seas, he said: "And it's not just playing around."
No, it's playing, when $230,000 is involved, for outrageously high stakes.
That speaks for itself.
I'd bet that this guy has no boating experience. He, at the very least, has no understanding of admiralty law. But he appointed himself judge and jury on this one. That's what upsets me. That said, I know Lyman Louis and his wife - both of which lobbied hard to get me fired from Sea Tow. I didn't like them and they didn't like me. But I also know the owners of Sea Tow. They are ethical people just trying to build a business, having lived and breathed the business 7 days a week for the first 15 years at least.
In that regard, a few years ago they converted from licensing agreements with the towers to a full franchise operation - for the primary reason of getting more control over the operations of the franchisees to ensure compliance with policy. The home office has full control over their franchisees in regard to the membership program. But work done outside of the membership program, like salvages, is primarily controlled by law.
If this was a BoatUS tower, I'd still feel the same way. None of us were there. We are just basing our opinions based on one reporter's story, one who obviously doesn't know what he is talking about, not that a lack of knowledge ever stops a reporter from opining. Some of you would be better served to read that series of articles written by Andy Anderson, like Steve did, so that you can protect yourselves in the event of a problem while out on your boat rather than playing federal judge and ruling on an event without the benefit of both sides of the story or eye witness accounts.
This is from a Sea Tow press release from last July:
Over the four day holiday weekend, Sea Tow received more than 4,360 phone calls, which
represents a 9% increase over last year’s record breaking volume. The Sea Tow network also provided service to approximately 1,460 members and non-members (a 33% increase), which included; over 400 off-peak calls (between 7:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m.); 154 salvages; nine maydays and 24 MARBS.
If there was a systemic problem, rest assured that some of those 1,460 people towed over that four day period would be screaming and yelling. The situation out there is much better than it used to be. During my stay there, we got rid of a number of renegade towers and a number of others were not invited to become franchisees.
I had asked fasteddy if his comment was based on personal experience. He sent me an email saying that it was. Therefore, I invite him to post his negative experience here so we can deal with it. Again, I've got no beans in this chili. We just need to deal with the topic fairly and accurately.
Who knows precisely what communication passed between Rescue Boat 860 and the "bigger boat," a Sea Tow salvage rig strategically parked at the edge of the action.
Sea Tow doesn't own "salvage rigs" and the use of the term "strategically" certainly indicates a bias.
Not $300 or $400, the bill for your average towing nightmare, but $230,000 or more.
Towing nightmare?
Louis, meanwhile, is back on the water. He spends 1,800 hours a year on the high seas, he said: "And it's not just playing around."
No, it's playing, when $230,000 is involved, for outrageously high stakes.
That speaks for itself.
I'd bet that this guy has no boating experience. He, at the very least, has no understanding of admiralty law. But he appointed himself judge and jury on this one. That's what upsets me. That said, I know Lyman Louis and his wife - both of which lobbied hard to get me fired from Sea Tow. I didn't like them and they didn't like me. But I also know the owners of Sea Tow. They are ethical people just trying to build a business, having lived and breathed the business 7 days a week for the first 15 years at least.
In that regard, a few years ago they converted from licensing agreements with the towers to a full franchise operation - for the primary reason of getting more control over the operations of the franchisees to ensure compliance with policy. The home office has full control over their franchisees in regard to the membership program. But work done outside of the membership program, like salvages, is primarily controlled by law.
If this was a BoatUS tower, I'd still feel the same way. None of us were there. We are just basing our opinions based on one reporter's story, one who obviously doesn't know what he is talking about, not that a lack of knowledge ever stops a reporter from opining. Some of you would be better served to read that series of articles written by Andy Anderson, like Steve did, so that you can protect yourselves in the event of a problem while out on your boat rather than playing federal judge and ruling on an event without the benefit of both sides of the story or eye witness accounts.
This is from a Sea Tow press release from last July:
Over the four day holiday weekend, Sea Tow received more than 4,360 phone calls, which
represents a 9% increase over last year’s record breaking volume. The Sea Tow network also provided service to approximately 1,460 members and non-members (a 33% increase), which included; over 400 off-peak calls (between 7:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m.); 154 salvages; nine maydays and 24 MARBS.
If there was a systemic problem, rest assured that some of those 1,460 people towed over that four day period would be screaming and yelling. The situation out there is much better than it used to be. During my stay there, we got rid of a number of renegade towers and a number of others were not invited to become franchisees.
I had asked fasteddy if his comment was based on personal experience. He sent me an email saying that it was. Therefore, I invite him to post his negative experience here so we can deal with it. Again, I've got no beans in this chili. We just need to deal with the topic fairly and accurately.
Chris, as far as Navy salvage is concerned, read this:
http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309051495/html/113.html
The point was that the CG can not claim salvage because their "charter" requires them to provide assistance, a pre-existing agreement. The Navy, on the other hand, is not so chartered.
Concerning peril, I would again suggest that you read the section on peril in that article by Anderson. Any vessel, for all intents and purposes, that can not proceed under its own power is in peril. The qualifying factor is the degree of peril.
Some folks here need to drop the emotionalism and view salvage analytically. If Maritime law was, in fact, outdated, the insurance companies would be screaming and yelling for reform. They are not. They are not because the system works to their benefit - and for yours. They would much rather pay a salvor $20K to save a vessel than a boat owner $200K for a total loss. Again, every boater needs to understand the laws. Your comment regarding salvage rights for a life just highlights that need. Section 2304 of the rules says:
Duty to provide assistance at sea
(a) A master or individual in charge of a vessel shall render assistance to any individual found at sea in danger of being lost, so far as the master or individual in charge can do so without serious danger to the master’s or individual’s vessel or individuals on board.
(b) A master or individual violating this section shall be fined not more than $1,000, imprisoned for not more than 2 years, or both.
You can't claim money for saving a live. Rather, you can spend two years in jail if you don't.
http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309051495/html/113.html
The point was that the CG can not claim salvage because their "charter" requires them to provide assistance, a pre-existing agreement. The Navy, on the other hand, is not so chartered.
Concerning peril, I would again suggest that you read the section on peril in that article by Anderson. Any vessel, for all intents and purposes, that can not proceed under its own power is in peril. The qualifying factor is the degree of peril.
Some folks here need to drop the emotionalism and view salvage analytically. If Maritime law was, in fact, outdated, the insurance companies would be screaming and yelling for reform. They are not. They are not because the system works to their benefit - and for yours. They would much rather pay a salvor $20K to save a vessel than a boat owner $200K for a total loss. Again, every boater needs to understand the laws. Your comment regarding salvage rights for a life just highlights that need. Section 2304 of the rules says:
Duty to provide assistance at sea
(a) A master or individual in charge of a vessel shall render assistance to any individual found at sea in danger of being lost, so far as the master or individual in charge can do so without serious danger to the master’s or individual’s vessel or individuals on board.
(b) A master or individual violating this section shall be fined not more than $1,000, imprisoned for not more than 2 years, or both.
You can't claim money for saving a live. Rather, you can spend two years in jail if you don't.
The laws only apply in navigable waters as defined by US Law:
http://www.usace.army.mil/inet/functions/cw/cecwo/reg/33cfr329.htm
http://www.usace.army.mil/inet/functions/cw/cecwo/reg/33cfr329.htm