What do you think about pilothouse Motorsailors?

Bill, check this boat out. This guy is extremely knowledgeable and skilled, I have read and conversed with him on another forum for many years and I think you would like him, and very possibly, his boat. Regardless he would be a good guy to talk this whole conundrum over with. Very interesting for us boat nerds.

http://www.trawlerpooh.blogspot.com/
 
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Originally posted by Capt. Bill1

quote:
Originally posted by caltexfla

Bill, I'm more with Pascal on this one. If you are on a budget, now you are essentially packing in the costs (and resulting added maintenance, people underestimate how much it costs to keep a sailing rig in proper condition) of a sailing apparatus on top of a power boat. And cutting down visibility and useable outdoor space while you are at it. Other than the few avid and devoted day sailors, racers and cross ocean sailors, sail boats are under power 95%-100% of the time.

My inclination, if I had your base inclination, would be to get a single engine "trawler" style boat for your budgeted amount, and join a sailing club or buy a small day sailor to learn that.

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+1 to all that. I'd look at trawlers and trawler types before a motorsailor. Unless you are really planning to go somewhere with long enough distances and open enough areas where you could really do some sailing and/or motor sailing.

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Bill you just hit the nail on the head. When we are more skilled, have the time and money we want to be able to do some moderate distance cruising with the sails up.
Bill
 
quote:
Originally posted by caltexfla

Bill, check this boat out. This guy is extremely knowledgeable and skilled, I have read and conversed with him on another forum for many years and I think you would like him, and very possibly, his boat. Regardless he would be a good guy to talk this whole conundrum over with. Very interesting for us boat nerds.

http://www.trawlerpooh.blogspot.com/

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Thanks George I will check him out this evening when I have some free time.
Bill
 
Bill: Assuming that you don't have much sail experience before getting too far into the sail idea I suggest one of the sailing schools using boats similar in size to what you are considering.
 
I sailed many a 16' Hobbie in my younger days. However I have numerous relatives who are sailors that would be willing to teach my wife and I. I'm looking at it this way I'll ditch the masts and it could be a full displacement trawler that I can enjoy the weekends on if the sails get on my nerves.
I'll repeat my mind is not made up on this but I have been watching many single hander's on U-Tube in this style boat it really doesn't look all that hard.
Most of these boats only sail at 3.5 to 5 knots with 15 knot winds.
Then again what do I know?
Bill
 
Sailing is not rocket science, as long as you are not racing. Man has been sailing for thousand of years!

The key is to keep it simple and I think most motorsailors do just that since they are not performance oriented.

Take tacking for instance... On many boats, it s chore... As you are executing the maneuver you need to release one jib line and then take in the other one using a winch. Do this 5 times and the fun is gone. Or you can sacrifice maybe 3% of performance and use a smaller self tacking jib like island packets (they are sailboats not MS). This is the route we chose for out daysailor... Result is that tacking only requires throwing the tiller over, and nothing more. Don't even need to put down our drinks.

The is a 30 something cape dory here in the club mooring field, a little smallish but seem comfortable with a large (for the size) enclosed pilot house
 
Lots of sailboats motorsail, that's particularly true when they have a hired captain at the helm, trying to meet a schedule. One nice thing about sails is that you can rely on them to work unless there is absolutely no wind--nice to have a back up plan when that single engine conks out. It's not so hard to learn to sail from point A to point B, plus it's really good training for understanding how wind and current affects the boat. There's a reason the Coast Guard has a sail powered training ship and the Naval Academy has sailboats.
 
Something not yet mentioned, but based on the apparent windage from the side, my guess is a motorsailer would really roll from port to starboard.

Based on everything discussed here the advantages of those sails do not seem to outweigh the overall disadvantages.

Survey says........... TRAWLER !

Hence the popularity of that hull design vs. the motorsailer.

Just my .02

RWS
 
quote:
Originally posted by caltexfla

Bill, check this boat out. This guy is extremely knowledgeable and skilled, I have read and conversed with him on another forum for many years and I think you would like him, and very possibly, his boat. Regardless he would be a good guy to talk this whole conundrum over with. Very interesting for us boat nerds.

http://www.trawlerpooh.blogspot.com/

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The vessel is awesome George. However it's more money than I can currently afford. It's coming down to basic economics for me.
Bill
 
You have it about right. If I figured 4 knots over ground for a passage it always was a decent guess.
Self tending rigs are indeed easy to work but there is still all the self tending furling gear to maintain. With sails up and wind in the sails they tend to roll a lot less than a power boat. With sails I never worried about engine failure because I knew I could always get to port even if it took a lot of extra time. It always puzzled me to see sailboats under tow.
 
quote:
Originally posted by pdecat

You have it about right. If I figured 4 knots over ground for a passage it always was a decent guess.
Self tending rigs are indeed easy to work but there is still all the self tending furling gear to maintain. With sails up and wind in the sails they tend to roll a lot less than a power boat. With sails I never worried about engine failure because I knew I could always get to port even if it took a lot of extra time. It always puzzled me to see sailboats under tow.

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I have only seen a few sailboats under tow it was usually a catastrophic failure of the rudder system.
Bill
 
Bill: I wonder what the cost going forward would be for a couple of years of cruising between your present boat at 5 knots and out fitting a motorsailor and doing the same.
 
quote:
Originally posted by pdecat

Bill: I wonder what the cost going forward would be for a couple of years of cruising between your present boat at 5 knots and out fitting a motorsailor and doing the same.

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My present boat doesn't have a comfy pilothouse that's another big reason for wanting to change the boat. I better try and get $20 or $25k for my gasser before they become even harder to sell than they are today. I don't believe the price of Ethanol will ever go down only up from here.
Plus I think the gassers will die with a season or 2 running at 5 knots. I think they would build up carbon deposits eventually ruining perfectly good engines.
Heck the other alternative would be to install 2 50hp small diesels in my current boat, the problem with that is I will definately be it's last owner at that point.
Bill
 
Bill, good luck with whatever you do. I wouldn't rule out dropping diesels in what you have, it's very nicely appointed and to say loaded would be putting it lightly. Hope you and Jan have a great spring. I grew up sailing 20 miles north of you, I would go back if my family would allow. With the wind we had last season, you would be fine!
 
quote:
Originally posted by Billylll

quote:
Originally posted by pdecat

You have it about right. If I figured 4 knots over ground for a passage it always was a decent guess.
Self tending rigs are indeed easy to work but there is still all the self tending furling gear to maintain. With sails up and wind in the sails they tend to roll a lot less than a power boat. With sails I never worried about engine failure because I knew I could always get to port even if it took a lot of extra time. It always puzzled me to see sailboats under tow.

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I have only seen a few sailboats under tow it was usually a catastrophic failure of the rudder system.
Bill

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You see sail boats under tow because the owner does not know how to sail, that's why.
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George any I have seen that have been towed into my marina have been due to loss of the rudders control. I guess some sailboats get towed because the captain can not sail but I would think that would be the exception.
Bill.
 
Engine failure. To be fair, many marinas will not let you sail in the fairways. But almost all of the cruising-size sail boaters I have seen wouldn't know how to do it anyway. Have seen plenty with engine failure towed in open water, but again if the concern is docking it I guess they just go ahead and get towed. Towed or not, 95% of the coastal cruising sail boats you see are under power, even under conditions where having a sail up would greatly reduce roll and improve sea keeping if nothing else.
 
Here is a Motorsailor that I want to go look at. However there's simply too much snow there to make the trip worthwhile. I don't want to list all the various upgrades I have as leftovers from when I built Wireless One. I even have a small Yanmar 4.5kw diesel powered genset. In addition I have 8 various Poly tanks that vary in sizes and volume. This boat is pretty bare bones with the exception of a bow thruster.
I have copies of a survey done on this vessel in 2012 and then the list of repairs and upgrades recommended on the survey including receipts. I would hire my own surveyor if this vessel is still around in about a month unless I find something much closer and perhaps better equipped.
Here is the direct link to boat.
http://www.rcryachts.com/pre_owned_detail.asp?sid=09086878X3K6K2014J6I41I34JAMQ3655R0&veh=2530021
What do you guys and gals think?
Bill
 
We have made many trips from Northport in mid Long Island sound up to RYB, Catskill or a bit further over the years. With little or no exception each year we always see a few sailboats being towed somewhere between Great Neck and RYB as a result of power loss and the existing currents. For those of you that do not transit this area the combination of current, traffic,and limited maneuverable space requires an ability to reach a reasonable speed to make headway safely. I have learned from having the trawler that in order to make the 'upstream' trip (about 100 miles)in one shot you are much better off with a speed capability of 13-15 knots minimum to offset the currents and planning tradeoffs.
That trip planning also considers early day and daylight only travel due to local traffic, being able to clearly see debris in the water and bridge opening status. With speeds above that approx. 14 knot minimum and the ability to select which week you go 'north' you can time the tides/currents so that they are with you 90% of the time and on the remaining 10% of the trip you will also want the speed to defeat the stronger current.
Of course you could do it in 2-4 days as well as long as you have the time and the interim destinations appeal to your trip in total.

For those of you who have not cruised trawlers in these areas there are specific tradeoffs in some spots which do not allow some of the more simple comparison such as - fuel use per hour is 2X or 3X less.

Good luck with the search and hope this helps
 
Hello Bill,

I do not know you but I would suggest or even plead with you to rent or somehow 'borrow' a boat of this type for at least a weeks journey before you try and make any longer term plans. I know all of us will feverishly type responses and thoughts about this boat attempting to help you make a educated decision - but this type of 'boating' is so foreign to you and your family's experience that I am afraid those details will fall well short of their mark.
FWIW -I do have a bunch of information about the Perkins 4-108 and they are easy to look stuff up online but my guess is that you will be 'shocked' by its normal running manners and the 'efficiency' of fuel use compared to more modern 4 stroke diesels. But it is a stout engine which will most always run the way you view it on the day you try it out

Hope this helps
 
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