Breaker issue

D, I think he means the breakers at the other pedestals were turned off. If there is a neutral/ ground issue simply turning off other pedestals breakers will not help or prove anything. However if you removed everyone's cords at the pedestals that would rule out other boats causing the problem.
32Carv, I assume if you only plug either 30 amp circuit in at the pedestal your boat works within the limits of a 30 amp circuit?
If not lets us know what happens when only one side is plugged in.
Bill
 
Both cords are plugged in and are fine if I turn either side by themselves. If I turn both mains on the boat on together, both dock breakers kick off, even with no draw.

quote:
Some marinas are going to GFI circuits on the 30A legs this is a horrible idea well intentioned but it's a real problem when a boat's on the other end of the circuit.
Click to expand...


Just talked to the mechanic at the marina next door and this is exactly what he describes. He told me that our marina is wired like this and that many new boats to the marina have similar issues. He suggested driving to his marina and trying the power there or pulling off the panel to see if the legs share a common ground which would trip the GFI.
Jim
 
quote:
Originally posted by 32carv

Both cords are plugged in and are fine if I turn either side by themselves. If I turn both mains on the boat on together, both dock breakers kick off, even with no draw.

quote:
Some marinas are going to GFI circuits on the 30A legs this is a horrible idea well intentioned but it's a real problem when a boat's on the other end of the circuit.
Click to expand...


Just talked to the mechanic at the marina next door and this is exactly what he describes. He told me that our marina is wired like this and that many new boats to the marina have similar issues. He suggested driving to his marina and trying the power there or pulling off the panel to see if the legs share a common neutral which would trip the GFI.
Jim

Click to expand...

Here we go again this is a situation where the 30 amp legs are on a GFI circuit. Boats were never wired for this. There's an easy dangerous fix I wouldn't recommend to anyone.
Bill
 
What is the correct fix? I assume the grounds for both circuits are connected behind the electrical panel. Is the fix to separate them?

Jim
 
quote:
Originally posted by 32carv

Both cords are plugged in and are fine if I turn either side by themselves. If I turn both mains on the boat on together, both dock breakers kick off, even with no draw.

quote:
Some marinas are going to GFI circuits on the 30A legs this is a horrible idea well intentioned but it's a real problem when a boat's on the other end of the circuit.
Click to expand...


Just talked to the mechanic at the marina next door and this is exactly what he describes. He told me that our marina is wired like this and that many new boats to the marina have similar issues. He suggested driving to his marina and trying the power there or pulling off the panel to see if the legs share a common ground which would trip the GFI.
Jim

Click to expand...


So they are in fact GFCI breakers then right? Your last comment leads me to believe this. If tey are, then the fix is a bit different.........D.........
 
They are GFCI breakers and many people with new used boats have similar issues. What is the fix?
Jim
 
quote:
Originally posted by D. Andrews

quote:
Originally posted by 32carv

Both cords are plugged in and are fine if I turn either side by themselves. If I turn both mains on the boat on together, both dock breakers kick off, even with no draw.

quote:
Some marinas are going to GFI circuits on the 30A legs this is a horrible idea well intentioned but it's a real problem when a boat's on the other end of the circuit.
Click to expand...


Just talked to the mechanic at the marina next door and this is exactly what he describes. He told me that our marina is wired like this and that many new boats to the marina have similar issues. He suggested driving to his marina and trying the power there or pulling off the panel to see if the legs share a common ground which would trip the GFI.
Jim

Click to expand...


So they are in fact GFCI breakers then right? Your last comment leads me to believe this. If tey are, then the fix is a bit different.........D.........

Click to expand...

Dee I'll let you take this, the real fix is to get the marina to get rid of the GFI breakers on 30 amp legs. I'm pretty sure you don't have the room in your boat, could stand the additional ballast weight or would want to spend the money to install a pair of Charles 30A isolation transformers. I think we are seeing this on the East coast as marinas rebuild after Sandy. There has been an uptick in boaters reporting GFI circuits being installed on 30 amp shore circuits. Boats with a single 30 amp leg don't have the problem but almost every boat that uses dual 30 amp circuits new or old will have a problem trying to use GFI protected pedestals.
Bill
 
Why are marinas installing them? It seems like they are pushing people towards an "unsafe" work around.
Jim
 
quote:
Originally posted by 32carv

Why are marinas installing them? It seems like they are pushing people towards an "unsafe" work around.
Jim

Click to expand...
Jim, I'm not an electrician so I will let one of the electricians answer. I think it's misguided electrical inspectors taking the GFI requirements where they don't apply. At the same time it might be uninformed insurance companies thinking this will save lives or limit liability. I'm pretty sure BoatUS had a write up on this problem. I think their legislative arm is trying to get this problem straightened out.
I believe in another thread we determined that the reverse polarity circuit alone could trip 30A mains on a GFI breaker.
Bill
 
About the code and standards
Boat and Marina Electrical Safety

The NFPA 303 Standard, “Fire Protection Standard for Marinas and Boatyards” addresses marinas and docking facilities up to and including the shore power receptacle on the power pedestal. The NFPA Standard 302, “Fire Protection Standard for Pleasure and Commercial Motor Craft” along with the ABYC Standard E-11 cover everything from the shore-end of your shore power cord up to and including your boat. Don’t be fooled by the names of the NFPA standards. They are designed to protect you from fire, and contain specific electrical system requirements to do just that.

NFPA 303 addresses areas that are required to be inspected on an annual basis. While we can perform a large portion of this inspection, a licensed code electrician is required for a complete inspection. The code electrician is licensed to inspect the internals of power panels and shore pedestals to ensure compliance and serviceability.

One area required by the 303 standard is an annual check of the ground integrity of the marina ground system. The reason this is so important is that the ground system is your vital link to ensure personal safety in the marina and to prevent fires. If this system is not in good condition, and an electrical fault occurs on a boat, the ground wiring might not be capable of carrying the resulting large fault currents back to the source. It’s these large fault currents which cause circuit protective devices to trip in an instant to prevent electrical shock and fires. Without this ground system intact, fault currents may persist while generating heat at the fault location. In addition faulty ground wiring may cause the voltage on metal casings in the boat to rise creating a shock or electrocution hazard.

Using an ohmmeter on the ground wiring is not sufficient to test its integrity. Our equipment places a momentary load on the ground wiring and tells us the impedance of this critical path. From this measurement we can determine if the wiring is capable of carrying the fault current necessary to trip a circuit breaker to quickly secure the power supply to the faulty equipment.

Other areas affecting safety in the marine environment include the use of shore cords and various adapters at the marina. Believe me when I say that there are adapters for literally every situation out there in the boating world, but some are just plain not safe. For instance, let’s say you need a 120v receptacle to plug your electric buffer into. The 120v convenience receptacle on the shore power pedestal is not working or none is installed. So, you get a hold of an adapter that plugs into a 30 amp twistlock receptacle on the shore pedestal and off you go. Problem here is that you have just plugged into a receptacle that is not protected by a GFCI! Should that tool get wet, as serious shock and injury hazard can result.

NFPA 303 clearly states that 30 amp receptacles are only to be used to power boats. It specifically requires that 120v convenience outlets on power pedestals be of the GFCI type to provide personal protection during use. So, in our example above you should have found a GFCI outlet (that is working) or you could have picked up one of those GFCI outlet boxes at the home centers that are designed to be plugged into ordinary outlets. Then you would plug your tool into the GFCI outlet on the box.

Since the ABYC standards require all receptacles subject to weather be protected by GFCIs, you could have also just plugged your buffer into one of these outlets on the boat.

A note on GFCIs. Recent data indicate that approximately 30% of the GFCI outlets installed in homes don’t work. This is because they are sensitive electronic instruments that are easily damaged by electrical transients (like lightning). That’s why they have a test button and are recommended to be tested monthly. Just think about the failure rate in the harsher marina and boat environment. I recently did a marina inspection where more than 50% of the GFCI receptacles on the power pedestals did not pass the test. This is a significant compromise of personal safety. Check a few at your marina and report this to the marina operator.

NFPA 303 clearly states that add-on plugs and electrical tape on shore cords are prohibited. How many like this do you normally see in your marina? We have documented cases where the improper assembly of replacement plugs caused fatalities.

For your own safety, it would be advisable to ask your marina operator when the last annual inspection was conducted as required by the NFPA standards. This inspection is designed to prevent fires and save lives.

Below are some pictures showing items which are clearly in violation of the standards. They were taken in everyday marinas you might encounter as a home for your boat or in your travels.
 
Bill,
There is no inverter on the boat.
Jim
 
quote:
Here is the old thread it's a long read it might be related to the problems your marina is having.
http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=161528

Click to expand...


Great thread, but despite all of the good conversation it turned out to be a boat issue. I am leaning towards it being a marina wiring issue based on stories from other boaters. I will be sure when I drive it next door and plug it in at our neighboring marina. (No GFCI)
Thanks,
Jim
 
quote:
Originally posted by 32carv

quote:
Here is the old thread it's a long read it might be related to the problems your marina is having.
http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=161528

Click to expand...


Great thread, but despite all of the good conversation it turned out to be a boat issue. I am leaning towards it being a marina wiring issue based on stories from other boaters. I will be sure when I drive it next door and plug it in at our neighboring marina. (No GFCI)
Thanks,
Jim

Click to expand...
Yes and no, the original 20amp GFCI breaker was removed from the 30 amp pedestal. His slip neighbor then had the same issue.
Bill
 
My guess is the boat in question has a single neutral (white wire) bus which both shore power inlets are tied to. This is a no-no with GFCI breakers as the neutrals need to be isolated and only connect to the intended load(s) (whether the load is a single appliance or half the boat circuits.)
 
quote:
Originally posted by Insufficient Funds

My guess is the boat in question has a single neutral (white wire) bus which both shore power inlets are tied to. This is a no-no with GFCI breakers as the neutrals need to be isolated and only connect to the intended load(s) (whether the load is a single appliance or half the boat circuits.)

Click to expand...

I can agree but a reverse polarity circuit has the potential to trip a GFCI 30amp breaker at the pedestal once both cords are connected. Jim I would suggest taking the boat to the mechanics marina and see if you are good there before approaching your marina.
Bill
 
I agree that the boat should be eliminated as the cause first and if the things I listed above are done, it will. I as well suspect that both the neutral and the ground are being shared between the two circuts, and this can be fixed. I will tell you how AFTER I know for sure that there is not some other issue causing this. The way your boat is wired makes it a fairly easy and straight forward fix, but only after other issues are eliminated.

Next, there is a lot of hoop la about the gfci's on the pedistals, well here is the truth, they are required by NEC and by most local govt bodies. Sorry but that is the way it is. You dont have to retrofit, but if you touch it, it must comply with the new standards. You can fix it, it most cases, with out an isolation transformer, and do so safely and with in code. Do the tests I asked above, and the things I will ask you to do next once I have the answers, and you can get past this and start enjoying your boat again..........D..........
 
Dee thanks for helping, I know you can help here.
Bill
 
Had a similar issue in Canada. We had to plug the second cord into a different pedestal.
 
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