Breaker issue

The two marinas chose to wire their docks differently for their own reasons. It's their marina and their choice. My boat will not work on my home marina's configuration. I can live with the issue, change marinas, or rewire my boat. I am choosing to rewire my boat.
Jim
 
quote:

Originally posted by Gregory S

I'm confused now. If you proved your boat wasn't the problem by plugging in at another marina, why are you re-wiring your panel?




Greg it sounds like a minor re-wire now that we clarified that white is neutral. It's an honest mistake 32Carv.
Best of luck, not that luck has anything to do with it!
Bill
 
Jim, lets get the basics out of the way, black is hot, green is ground, and white is neutral. You have a decent looking set up by the way. Here is what I want you to do.

1. Disconnect all shore power, inverter, etc. make sure the system is completely dead.
2. Put it back like it was originally so we start clean.

*SPECIAL NOTE* The next two steps are assuming the main feed from the shore cords are going to the left hand side of the main breakers, if they are going to the right hand side, switch the next step to left instead of right. It appears from your pictures that all 3 go through the breaker. If they do not, just locate where the green and white wires connect to the buss and disconnect them from the buss.

3. Circuit 2, main breaker 2, right hand side, follow the white wire to the neutral bus, disconnect it from the neutral bus. Using a meter, check for resistance from this white wire, to the white wire coming from your other shore cord (shore power 1) there should not be any, there should not be any connection between the neutrals now. If there is, stop now and post.
4. Circuit 2, main breaker 2, right hand side, follow the green wire to the ground bus, disconnect it from the ground bus. Using a meter, do the same test above with the grounds. Needs to have the same result, But if the ground does show connection, continue on with the next steps but post that. It may be grounded at the breaker.
5. Your hot's do not share a common buss, it is split, look in picture 4 from the top, go to the bottom left hand side where the black wire connects, move up from there and you will see where the metal stops and there is a space there. That is the split between the circuits.
6. Right hand side of breakers ac1, ac2, and ac water pump. Follow those black wires until you determine which 3 cords they go to. It looks like everything goes to the bottom right hand side of the panel. You might have to do some pulling and tugging there to get this done. You should end up identifying 3 cords, ac1, ac2, and the ac water pump.
7. Once you have the 3 identified, follow the white wires to the neutral buss, disconnect them from the neutral buss. Wire nut those to the white wire from step 3, you will end up with 4 white wires tied together, they are ac1, ac2, water pump, and the shore supply neutrals.
8. Repeat step 7 for the green wires, wire nut to the green from step 4. You will end up with 4 green wires tied together, same as step 7.
9. Double check each step and double trace the wires to make sure you have the right ones. This will not work if you pull the wrong ground or neutral.
10. Test. Do this step just like I am saying, unplug shore power 1 from pedestal. Only have shore 2, connected. Test your ac units. If everything works, great, if it does not, you have the wrong neutral, if the gfci trips, you have the wrong ground. Once good, disconnect shore 2 from pedestal, plug in shore 1, test shore 1 power, if everything works, great, if not, you still have the wrong neutral, if gfci trips, you have the wrong ground.
11. Once 11 is complete, try it all, both cords connected, then turn it all on and see what happens.

If all this works, and there isn't something I am missing, you are effectively isolating the two circuits from each other. If it still trips the gfci, and it might, then we need to look at the main breakers in your panel. I suspect however, doing the above will solve all your issues..........D..........
 
Hard to tell from the pictures, but it looks to me like you have a common neutral bus (white is neutral, black it hot.) It also looks like the ground and neutral busses are connected to the metal box. The neutrals must be isolated from the grounds and the metal box.

The neutrals(white) from each line-in need to be isolated from each other i.e. you should have two neutral buses, one for each line. Individual circuits need to have their neutrals connected to the appropriate neutral bus.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Gregory S

I'm confused now. If you proved your boat wasn't the problem by plugging in at another marina, why are you re-wiring your panel?






Actually Greg, he proved his boat IS the problem, what he proved was his boat complies to the older standards but not the newer ones, he also proved that the system will work, eliminating other causes. Now we just need to get it to work with newer standards. Once done, he can hook up at any marina, both new and old standards. Until they come up with something else to protect us from ourselves.............D.....
 
Dee if he follows your steps I agree with all however once you have it wire nutted and working. You will have to remove the wire nuts and either install the proper marine rated butt splices or split additional terminal strips am I wrong?
Bill
 
If in fact the mains ARE GFI breakers.....they will not work being feed by a GFI shore power.....that's why it trips. BUT at the other Marina ( non GFI shore power ) they act as GFI's protecting you and the boat. If you plan to stay at this marina rewire the mains with conventional 30A single pole breakers.
You will have a " TADA " moment
 
Billy, yes that would be the preferred fix, but I hate but splices in anything over 24v, I know they make them for greater voltages, I just don't like using them. Personal preference. I would actually rather have a sealed wire nut or a Buchannan style than a but splice. Additional terminal strips or busses would be the better bet.

Double D, a gfci outlet can feed a gfci breaker that feeds gfci outlets, it can work. Actually my boat is set up that way. Even though I have a trailer for mine, I stay at a marina when out. It has a 30a gfci feed twist lock, my main is gfci, and my outlets are all gfci protected. It works, although it trips the outlet each time I switch from inverter, to gen to shore, no matter which way I switch. The trick is to keep everything at the same potential, which is the issue here. He has different potentials between the two lines due to them being on separate busses in the main panel feeding his pedestal. For me, I would rather keep the gfci protection and work with it, than to bypass it, and risk it. That would be the last choice, BUT may be the only choice in his case. That is what I meant above by we might have to look at his mains, but there needs to be some down stream protection as he or the next owner could run from a genset or inverter. That is what I did with my boat, old owner never used anything but shore power or 12v, me, I have shore, an inverter and a genset.............D...........
 
D.....I doubt there is a 30A GFI marine outlet in the power pole..( never seen one )...my guess is there's a 30A GFI breaker in the panel in the marina electrical room ...feeding the straight up 30A marine outlet. MY guess is the GFI breaker in the marina panel see's the boat as an ungrounded device and trips.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Insufficient Funds

Hard to tell from the pictures, but it looks to me like you have a common neutral bus (white is neutral, black it hot.) It also looks like the ground and neutral busses are connected to the metal box. The neutrals must be isolated from the grounds and the metal box.

The neutrals(white) from each line-in need to be isolated from each other i.e. you should have two neutral buses, one for each line. Individual circuits need to have their neutrals connected to the appropriate neutral bus.






+1
Neutrals ( part of the circuit ) can NOT be mixed with the grounds.
 
Dee - I did what you suggested. I pulled main ground and neutral and checked for resistance and found none. I followed the wires and pulled all of the ground and neutrals. I used wire nuts to wire them together, four on each side pus a ground wire to the AC breaker because I removed the jumper line earlier. I used electrical tape to wrap them tightly. I will go back in next week and do something more permanent.

Each side worked independently but when on together, the breakers on the dock popped.

I took off the access panel for the volt and amp gauges and found that the gauges and reverse polarity lights shared a common ground and neutral. I separated them and ran a new wire to the AC volt meter from the neutral to get it to work. It is back together and all systems are working as designed without any power issues.
Thank you
Jim

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quote:

Dee if he follows your steps I agree with all however once you have it wire nutted and working. You will have to remove the wire nuts and either install the proper marine rated butt splices or split additional terminal strips am I wrong?
Bill






Bill - First of all, thank you for your help with this. I do plan on going back in and replacing the wire nuts with something more permanent. I was going to use those heavy duty connectors with the heat shrink wrap. Is there something more appropriate? There is not alot of room in the box to work.
Jim
 
Jim I think the heavy duty marine type crimps will work fine. I generally use the type that will heat shrink using their own jacket. Either style with or without external heat shrink tubing will suffice in my opinion. I'm glad Dee and Don came along as well as others to articulate this better then I would ever be able too!
Bill
 
Research Buchannan connectors. They are a cross between a wire nut and a but splice. They make or did make a style for marine use that looks like a wire nut but you crimp it and it has its own heat shrink. They are made for higher voltages and amperages and are small in size.

The use of a common ground and neutral for the volt and amp gauges to me was wrong from the start. That should have showed up with the meter when you did the resistance check. Glad you found it, and now can start enjoying your boat for a change or at least until you work on what's next, lol. You do know that the only thing on an old boat that works is the owner right?

Double D, you know I got to thinking, I have my boat set up similar at home. I keep mine plugged in to shore power here, I have a GFCI breaker feeding a duplex outlet, then a gfci protected extension cord feeding an adaptor to the shore cord, that feeds a gfci breaker, feeding gfci protected outlets. And it trips the gfci outlet if I switch from shore to inverter or back, but holds after that. The marina I use have gfci breakers in the pedestal. Those breakers in turn feed the outlets in the pedestal. I have never asked if they are feeding the dock with gfci breakers, but I bet they are..........D.............
 
I know my marina only GFCI's the 15 amp dock power outlets on the pedestals. I'll get my new to me Gulfstar ready for this once I add dual AC 30 amp legs. Right now she's set up for a single 50/125 actually an odd ball config.
Bill
 
quote:

Originally posted by D. Andrews

Double D, you know I got to thinking, I have my boat set up similar at home. I keep mine plugged in to shore power here, I have a GFCI breaker feeding a duplex outlet, then a gfci protected extension cord feeding an adaptor to the shore cord, that feeds a gfci breaker, feeding gfci protected outlets. And it trips the gfci outlet if I switch from shore to inverter or back, but holds after that. The marina I use have gfci breakers in the pedestal. Those breakers in turn feed the outlets in the pedestal. I have never asked if they are feeding the dock with gfci breakers, but I bet they are..........D.............






D.....WHY so many GFCI's ? It only takes ONE.... properly wired.... to protect you and the boat.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Double D

quote:

Originally posted by D. Andrews

Double D, you know I got to thinking, I have my boat set up similar at home. I keep mine plugged in to shore power here, I have a GFCI breaker feeding a duplex outlet, then a gfci protected extension cord feeding an adaptor to the shore cord, that feeds a gfci breaker, feeding gfci protected outlets. And it trips the gfci outlet if I switch from shore to inverter or back, but holds after that. The marina I use have gfci breakers in the pedestal. Those breakers in turn feed the outlets in the pedestal. I have never asked if they are feeding the dock with gfci breakers, but I bet they are..........D.............






D.....WHY so many GFCI's ? It only takes ONE.... properly wired.... to protect you and the boat.






I don't know squat about electricity but when I thought I needed a GFCI at my poolside filter outlet and at the house, the electrician said the same thing regarding one GFCI per line. If you put in more than one the GFCI's could get "confused" with any voltage anomaly and the one GFCI had to be the first thing in line from the power source.

IIRC, GeeBee had issues getting his Lanier home dock approved because of similar issues.

It seems to me the standards are not standard.
 
My Mainship has one GFCI for each branch circuit. They are the 1st outlet on the port side and the 1st outlet on the starboard. These are feed directly from each breaker and one is in the head it has it's own breaker. I have a total of 3 all except the head are the 1st of numerous GFCI's in line.
Bill
 
There is no need to use more then one GFCI outlet on the same circuit.....all GFCI outlets have a " line " and " load " side. Use a standard breaker in the panel.... feed the FIRST GFCI in the line side ( in )....then load side ( out ) ....to the next outlet....the rest of the outlets should be a cheap non GFI outlet. You can feed about 5 outlets ( depending on the planned watts to use ) off the load side. Each of the outlets on the LOAD side are now GFCI protected. OR ....you can use a GFCI breaker in the panel and feed ALL standard outlets. To use more then one GFCI outlet in a single circuit is a complete waist of $$$. Contractors 10 pack of Leviton grounded outlets is $6.50. A contractors 10 pack of Leviton GFCI's is $89.50.

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DD & others.

Does the same apply to boats? If so, which one goes to the bonding circuit if any?
 
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