dock GFCI trips out
- Thread starter PatSea
- Start date
I believe the indicators are an ABYC requirement.
It's like pulling teeth here - What does the marina owner have to say now that your electrician has determined that the boat has no wiring deficiencies? Why won't he install a proper twist lock receptacle and non GFCI breaker?
It's like pulling teeth here - What does the marina owner have to say now that your electrician has determined that the boat has no wiring deficiencies? Why won't he install a proper twist lock receptacle and non GFCI breaker?
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2006
- RO Number
- 20354
- Messages
- 1,075
I have been a bit distant lately due to personal issues, but seen and read through this thread. To the OP, I am a licensed master electrician, that includes both land and marine. So let me dispel a few false statements that have been made through this post.
First, GFCI's are REQUIRED at marina's. Now, a few of you are already steaming, so let me explain. The main feeder of a marina must be a GFCI, if it is not, then all branch circuits are required to be GFCI. BUT, that is not the real problem here. The real problem here is, the way I read it, is this shore power connection is a 20a circuit. That is where the GFCI comes into play. ALL SHORE POWER PLUGS ARE REQUIRED TO BE NOT LESS THAN 30a AND ARE NOT REQUIRED TO BE GFCI. THEY MUST BE OF A SINGLE TWIST LOCK CONNECTION. There are other requirements, but that is the meat of this discussion. What you have here is not a shore power connection. Yep you read that right, if it is in fact a 20a outlet, then it is a convenience outlet and MUST be gfci protected, meaning the outlet. This is a NEC and NFPA REQUIREMENT, and is at the very least, minimum code requirement. ABYC requires you to use a gfci protected cord when using an adaptor to adapt to a a non gfci protected outlet if you were to encounter one that is not up to code.
All that being said, the marina operator is fully with in code if this a 20a branch circuit, and is not a dedicated shore power outlet. He was and is required to have gfci's on the 20a convenience outlets at his marina. Now, here is your out. IF he is advertising this slip as having dedicated shore power connections, then he must change the outlet to a 30a single twist lock, and meet several other requirements. One way to tell is if there is a disconnecting means with in a few feet of the outlet, could be a disconnect, a switch, a breaker, something to turn the outlet off. This is another requirement of the code, there must be a means to turn the outlet off prior to connecting the boat. You are not supposed to plug the boat in to a hot outlet, this is as well a code requirement by the NEC and the NFPA.
If he says these are just convenience outlets, well, then your stuck with it. You will have to trace down what is causing the neutral or ground leakage current on your boat. I am surprised your electrician did not do this for you, I would have, and most of the guys I know would have found the source as well. Could be many things, some of which are listed here, some are not. I wont go into specifics as you will need a trained electrician to look into those as these area's could be lethal if not checked and handled properly.........D.........
First, GFCI's are REQUIRED at marina's. Now, a few of you are already steaming, so let me explain. The main feeder of a marina must be a GFCI, if it is not, then all branch circuits are required to be GFCI. BUT, that is not the real problem here. The real problem here is, the way I read it, is this shore power connection is a 20a circuit. That is where the GFCI comes into play. ALL SHORE POWER PLUGS ARE REQUIRED TO BE NOT LESS THAN 30a AND ARE NOT REQUIRED TO BE GFCI. THEY MUST BE OF A SINGLE TWIST LOCK CONNECTION. There are other requirements, but that is the meat of this discussion. What you have here is not a shore power connection. Yep you read that right, if it is in fact a 20a outlet, then it is a convenience outlet and MUST be gfci protected, meaning the outlet. This is a NEC and NFPA REQUIREMENT, and is at the very least, minimum code requirement. ABYC requires you to use a gfci protected cord when using an adaptor to adapt to a a non gfci protected outlet if you were to encounter one that is not up to code.
All that being said, the marina operator is fully with in code if this a 20a branch circuit, and is not a dedicated shore power outlet. He was and is required to have gfci's on the 20a convenience outlets at his marina. Now, here is your out. IF he is advertising this slip as having dedicated shore power connections, then he must change the outlet to a 30a single twist lock, and meet several other requirements. One way to tell is if there is a disconnecting means with in a few feet of the outlet, could be a disconnect, a switch, a breaker, something to turn the outlet off. This is another requirement of the code, there must be a means to turn the outlet off prior to connecting the boat. You are not supposed to plug the boat in to a hot outlet, this is as well a code requirement by the NEC and the NFPA.
If he says these are just convenience outlets, well, then your stuck with it. You will have to trace down what is causing the neutral or ground leakage current on your boat. I am surprised your electrician did not do this for you, I would have, and most of the guys I know would have found the source as well. Could be many things, some of which are listed here, some are not. I wont go into specifics as you will need a trained electrician to look into those as these area's could be lethal if not checked and handled properly.........D.........
D.Andrews, very interesting input. Thanks! To clarify, I am useing a standard shore power cord plugged directly into a 30amp twist lock outlet. I am not useing any type of adaptor. The outlet is protected by a 20 amp GFCI breaker which is located right on the pedastal.
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2007
- RO Number
- 27413
- Messages
- 1,164
D. Andrews: Thanks for the explanation. It makes me even angrier at the owner of the marina at which we stayed in Bluepoint, NY, for refusing to replace the standard 20A household receptacle he had installed at the shore-power post. Thankfully, no one was ever injured nor equipment damaged by that setup. The marina in question in this thread has to step up and rectify its problem. Boat owners are paying good money for service; they are entitled to properly operated electrical lines. Hy
From what I can deduce from the thread and Mr Andrews' explanation, it APPEARS to me that the marina was originally wired with "convenience" outlets, and the GFCI breakers were installed per requirements. Later the outlets were changed to 30 amp, but as the wiring may not support 30 amps, the 20 amp GFCI breakers were retained. Rewiring the entire marina with 30 amps (or more) to every slip is not a small (or cheap) endeavor, and with the boating economy where it is, the money may simply not be available. This is just speculation, but usually when this sort of thing happens it's all about the money.
Whether the boat is wired "correctly" or not is moot, it IS incompatible with the marina. Seems to me the choice is simple: change the boat or change marinas.
If you make a big enough scene about it you may be "asked" to do the latter. If enough of you get together and force the marina to upgrade its wiring, you can pretty much guarantee that your rates will go up, or it may simply close.
Just my observation, probably wrong.
Whether the boat is wired "correctly" or not is moot, it IS incompatible with the marina. Seems to me the choice is simple: change the boat or change marinas.
If you make a big enough scene about it you may be "asked" to do the latter. If enough of you get together and force the marina to upgrade its wiring, you can pretty much guarantee that your rates will go up, or it may simply close.
Just my observation, probably wrong.
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- RO Number
- 20824
- Messages
- 2,958
Just set up a portable Honda generator in your engine room and run off of that. Problem solved
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2006
- RO Number
- 20354
- Messages
- 1,075
I was able to illicit the response I was actually looking for, and what I suspected. So here goes, you stated that, the breaker is located on the pedestal, it is a 20a GFCI BREAKER, that is feeding a 30a twist lock outlet. Simply put, this is a code violation, he is violating NEC and NFPA code. I believe and if you need will research it, section 555 of the nec. It states that a shore power connection must be a minimum of 30a with a local disconnecting means to protect you from injury when connecting. He meets all other requirements of the code, including a weather proof enclosure ( pedestal ) and a local disconnecting means ( the 20a breaker ) BUT he is violating the minimum circuit size of 30a. 20a circuits are only for convenience outlets, not dedicated shore power connections as you are describing. So you do have a leg to stand on. I would not go in demanding that he change his wiring, but, I would ask that he upgrade to a 20 or 30a non gfci breaker, which the 30 would be with in code, for your slip.
If you need, I can give you the exact code that I reference, but I believe it is section 555, but it is the point something I cant recall right off the top of my head. Too many long winded codes to try to remember. Also, local code can not trump NEC unless it goes above and beyond code minimum......D..........
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2006
- RO Number
- 20354
- Messages
- 1,075
Thanks Bill, been a rough few months.........D........
UPDATE - PROBLEM RESOLVED
Wanted to let you know there were two problems found on the boat which caused the pedastal breaker to trip.
1. There was a short in the water heater. I had stopped useing the water heater about 5 years ago because it was leaking. Decided to go without hot water due to the difficulty of replacing heater. However, the wiring was still connected to the heater. I disconnected the wiring, insulated the ends.
2. One of the 20 amp GFI outlets in the galley had an internal short. It literally fell apart into many pieces as I took it out of the outlet box. Installed new GFI breaker and works fine.
I'm now running all systems on the 20 amp GFCI breaker on the power pedastal without tripping the breaker.
Thanks for all the suggestions from this board. Your ideas were helpful.
This difficult episode reinforced to me the need to thoroughly check out all electrical problems until the root cause is determined, rather than blame it on the marina. Ground faults on boats are serious business.
Wanted to let you know there were two problems found on the boat which caused the pedastal breaker to trip.
1. There was a short in the water heater. I had stopped useing the water heater about 5 years ago because it was leaking. Decided to go without hot water due to the difficulty of replacing heater. However, the wiring was still connected to the heater. I disconnected the wiring, insulated the ends.
2. One of the 20 amp GFI outlets in the galley had an internal short. It literally fell apart into many pieces as I took it out of the outlet box. Installed new GFI breaker and works fine.
I'm now running all systems on the 20 amp GFCI breaker on the power pedastal without tripping the breaker.
Thanks for all the suggestions from this board. Your ideas were helpful.
This difficult episode reinforced to me the need to thoroughly check out all electrical problems until the root cause is determined, rather than blame it on the marina. Ground faults on boats are serious business.