Engine Failure

T

tullydf

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
RO Number
29395
Messages
38
Hello all, it's been some time since I've posted. I recently had to replace and engine (Crusader 270) 5.7 in my 1988 Mainship Nantucket Sedan. The old motor spun a bearing 10 days before leaving on vacation, so I had to scurry. I bought a "running engine" from DaddyO's marine in Pompano Beach FL and had it shipped to CT. The "running engine" consists of a brand new motor minus the manifolds, risers, tranny, and some accessories. Got the engine in and ended up 1 day late for my Vacation. The motor seemed not to quite idle correctly from the get go, but I ran the boat to Block Island from Bridgeport CT (about 80 NM). Upon leaving Block Island, the boat stalled leaving the dock. We arrived back at Bridgeport without any incidents. The next time I used the boat, I noticed the idle was rougher than prior. I then noticed a little oil pooling at the base of the intake manifold where it meets the head, just rear of the automatic choke on the carburator. I cleaned the oil ran again, and there it was again. I attempted to tighten the nut in that location, no luck. I sprayed the area with carb cleaner and the RPMs increased. I called the place where I got the engine and they sent me a different bolt. When I pulled the bolt I suspected was the culprit, it was ever so slightly bent. I was told by someone it was likely too long which would have caused the intake manifold leak. Replaced the bolt, torqued to specs, engine still ran poorly. I decided to get a mechanic involved and he discovered no compression in 4 cylinders. Told the engine outfit and in order to have covered by warranty, I had to pull engine and ship back to FL. Got the call today that 4 valves were "mushroomed" they went over the engine, replaced the valves and are shipping back to me. Keep in mind this motor only had about 12 hours of use. Likely 12 hours with an intake manifold leak.

Their diagnosis was bad fuel. I did have fuel issues in the past, but had the tank professionally cleaned, I have a 10 micron racor, then a spin on fuel filter prior to the fuel pump, then the carb filter. I have used startron religiously and the tank of gas was fresh. They recommended getting rid of the fuel (3/4 tank about 180 gallons) and having tank cleaned again.

My concern...could the intake manifold leak have caused this and they are giving me a different diagnonis to save face? My other engine is much older and operates off the same fuel tank and it is running fine. I don't want to incur the expense of another fuel tank cleaning ($700) if they are just covering their rear ends.

I would love to hear some opinions on this?
 
Was the manifold leak on the same side as the tuliped valves?
 
So Bruce does that cause a very lean burn which hammers the valves?
 
Yup, bad fuel diagnosis means they're trying to weasel.

Intake leak will surely lean out the F/A mixture and cause the exhaust valves to get red hot and suck the valves.
 
Funny... I was thinking of DaddyO's just the other day and looking at their engine offerings. My neighbor got a 5.7/350 from them about 15 years ago, with good results. Trailered it from Jacksonville to their shop, brought the trailer home, and ran the boat back home in the water from down there in South Florida.

Anyhow, the "running engine" whether new or reman, seems to include intake manifold, carburetor, ignition, and exhaust system.

But you said "minus" so I'm wondering: Who furnished the Intake Portion, Carb and Manifold?

Yes, it'd run lean with a loose intake manifold. And Yes, I've seen engines where intake manifold bolts were into an oil passage. The fix was to put a copper washer under the bolt head so it'd crush and serve as a gasket against the oil. But if bolts are too long, intake'll be loose.

Is this a Vortec or Pre-Vortec motor?
 
The minus I was referring to was accessories like FWC system, Tranny cooler, Raw Water Pump...etc. DaddyO's furnished the distributor, carb, intake manifold, water circulating pump, electric fuel pump...basically they furnish everything to run the engine prior to shipping, but they charge extra for the exhaust manifolds, risers, and elbows. I opted out of the manifolds, risers, and elbows as mine were newer, so they did not run engine prior to shipping.
 
pdecat, I don't know which cylinders are on which side without looking at the manual, but the local mechanic said no compression in cylinders 2,4,3,5. My concern is if it could have somehow been fuel related, I guess I'd have to get rid of 180 gallons of fresh fuel with startron in it and see about having the tank cleaned or replaced. I had the tank cleaned professionally about 2 or 3 years ago. Fuel just seems like a good excuse for them. I feel like it may have been more likely the intake manifold leak. Intake manifold leak was between cylinders 4 and 6.
 
I have a picture of the leak and exactly where it is located, but I don't know if I can post it here?
 
One of the great down sides of this site. No photo repository of substance. Maybe someone can tell us if the cylinders are all on the same side. Why number 1 was off the hook I cannot say.
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Certainly an air suction leak can cause a damaging lean condition, particularly on a carbed engine .

Wondering if the "brand new " engine could possibly have been rebuilt or re-manned.

Also, have you taken a fuel sample from the bottom of the tank to check for good fresh very gassy smell and no-separation appearance? Fresh new gasohol added to water in the tank can still phase-separate.A lot can happen to tank contents in 2-3 yrs since the polishing but you said the fuel was new.
Is the fill cap O-ring gasket in place in excellent condition to keep water out there?

Have you triple-checked the firing order on both ends of the cables and re-checked the dist cap condition and both base timing and advance?

Is this by any chance the counter RH rotation engine of a twin engine setup , with reverse firing order? If RH, it doesn't by any add'l chance have the flat cross-fire dist cap with molded in cyl numbers applicable only to the standard LH rotation engines does it?
 
Sandy,

It was sold as brand new crate engine from GM finished by DaddyO's with brand new dist., brand new carb, intake manifold, water circulating pump, electric fuel pump. It is definitely LH rotation. O-ring at fuel cap is in perfect condition and tightens nicely. I check the racor regularly and no water in bowl. I started out with a full tank of fresh fuel once new engine was installed. I have not taken sample from bottom of tank in some time. No indication of bad fuel with other engine as both pull from same tank.
 
Sounds to me like factory short block with daddyo put on the extras. Factory just doesn't do sh*t work like that. It's possible for a head gasket leak between 2&4 and 3&5 to cause a lean condition that can suck valves...pulling air from their adjacent cylinder.
 
Is it possible that the retailer bought a long block and then dressed it the rest of the way? If so, either they didn't torque the intake manifold properly, or maybe the "re-manufactured" intake manifold surface that meets the head on that side was warped a bit.
The other thing that may or may not be a factor: The GM small block heads with the center valve cover bolts use a different intake manifold than the earlier ones with perimeter valve cover bolts.
The two intake manifolds look the same, but they are not. They have a different angle on the surface where the intake manifold and head mate.
The old intake gaskets should give you some good clues as to what went wrong if the intake was part of the problem.
 
quote:
Originally posted by tullydf

Sandy,

It was sold as brand new crate engine from GM finished by DaddyO's with brand new dist., brand new carb, intake manifold, water circulating pump, electric fuel pump. It is definitely LH rotation. O-ring at fuel cap is in perfect condition and tightens nicely. I check the racor regularly and no water in bowl. I started out with a full tank of fresh fuel once new engine was installed. I have not taken sample from bottom of tank in some time. No indication of bad fuel with other engine as both pull from same tank.

Click to expand...


Okidoke- Just thought I'd ask for clarification of some of the semi-remote possibilities just in case, and appreciate the good reply.
Very sorry to read of your sad and frustrating engine issues and hope you can get them squared away without tooooo much pain ( and the spendy part) to be able to return to happy boating.

FWIW , 13 yrs ago I even had one of my 2 brand spankin' new full-turnkey Crusader Captain's Choice MPI (upgrade replacement) engines not run close to correctly when installed by the very good authorized dealer and it was replaced with another new one under warranty before I ever saw it. Shipping & labor was included as it certainly should have been at the already paid full list price.
 
Sandy,

These guys told me I had to pay the shipping to send it back. I also had to pay the labor to remove the engine. Fortunatly, I did everything except lifting the motor out. Because the engine is mid-ship in the interior, I had to get a guy with a boom crane and he was able to get the boom through the sliding glass doors at an angle to lift the motor out. The worst part is that my mechanic believed replacing the heads would likely have fixed the problem so long as there was not damage to pistons. I suggested to DaddyO's letting the mechanic do that and reimbursing the labor and cost of heads if that were the case. They insisted I had to send to them if I wanted them to stand behind warranty. The cost of removal of the engine and shipping was far more than the cost of two new heads and labor would have been. It could have been done weeks ago and the boat would not have had to be pulled from water. I feel I got a real "royal" one on this. Now I am worried they are covering up their mistake on the intake manifold leak by blaming "bad fuel". I may just replace the fuel tank anyway as even though I had the tank professionally cleaned two years ago, I usually have to replace the racors once or twice a season becuase of varnish. I really wish I just knew the exact reason for failure.

Dave
 
I have to add, the guy at DaddyO's said they normally wouldn't cover the work because of the diagnosis of bad fuel, but that they were doing me a "solid". If they are right, God Bless them, but it doesn't seem to add up for me. The other engine is running fine and uses the same fuel. Why would a brand new engine with only twelve hours go and the older engine is still running strong? There are enough filters between the tank and the carb that nothing should be getting in. I check and change the filters religiously.
 
David- If they said they were doing you a "solid" you might want to get clarification on their interpretation of that term as it sounds painful on the aft side.
As you say and from what you have reported, it doesn't make sense to CYA-blame bad fuel if the other engine is unaffected and there appears to be a clear error (manifold) on their part. So far this does not speak well at all for Daddyo engines and support. But,it is always ...possible... there are other system factors we are not aware of yet.

Hope this has a happier outcome for you eventually going forward.
 
"Solid?" Never heard the term. But Urban Dictionary: "Can be used to describe a favor done for someone. Do me a solid and hand me that hammer."

Ask how DO's determined the fuel was bad. Repeat that test yourself. How'd the gas look and smell? I saw a used boat I really liked the looks of, sitting alone in a lot marked "For Sale" so I walked up. The boat reeked of a vinegary varnishy smell. So I walked away after a quick glance showed me it'd sat in the sun for years.

Two years is plenty of time for gasoline, especially 10% ethanol, to go bad. I don't think half a tank of fresh gas can redeem half a tank of old gas. I'd be concerned that very old gas, even "stabilized" like Startron, Sta-Bil, can loose its "punch" over time. Let me add, I am NOT a chemist and don't have the study to back that up, I just think old doesn't work as well as new most of the time. But let's say it's true. Same gas didn't damage the older engine. Didn't damage the new engine uniformly across the cylinders...

I've heard the expression "Secret Warranty" where a company knows there's a problem and handles it, often for free, in the name of "Good Customer Relations." No doubt in the hope of avoiding adverse publicity and possible investigation that could lead to a formal recall.

Haven't seen your motor, and I'm not an engine builder. Want my guess? Wrong or loose bolts or worse caused the intake to leak air which leaned out several cylinders, burning the valves. Very Very Very Hard to hear a marine engine "knock" and it might not have been doing that anyhow, just running hot. What's "or worse?" Well, if the Heads had been re-surfaced, the relationship of intake manifold to heads could have changed. That can damage the gasket, cause vacuum leaks, etc.

Did your mechanic have the heads off, or use a scope of some kind to examine the valves to find them tuliped?

I went back and looked at reviews. I know that reviews come in from the "tails" of the "bell shaped curve," either overjoyed or extremely disappointed. Even those who are pleased don't often do a review. From the number of angry reviews I found today, either" Those "tails" are really long, or they're actually doing you a Solid. In this case, my translation of Solid is Secret Warranty.
 
JD,

I tried to get more information out of them, but he basically said that of what little bit of oil was left on the dipstick (Mind you I had to evacuate the system of all fluids including oil prior to shipping), he said he smelled fuel. I checked that personally during my attempt to diagnose and did not smell even a hint of fuel. In fact, I did post break-in oil change upon returning from Block Island, and checked the oil I removed and no gassy smell. I replaced with fresh oil and filter and used once to idle to an anchorage about a mile away from my marina. He also said they replaced the carb as it was clogged and that must have caused the fuel to "dump" into the engine. A little footnote on that...after sending the engine back, I asked him to replace the carb as a coast guard auxilliary member told me it was an automotive carb, with no return for fuel overflow. I was also told that the ignition was automotive as it had a vacuum advance pump attached to it. He neither confirmed or denied whether they were automotive or not. I told him I wanted to be sure when I get it back it was "Coast Guard Approved". Interestingly, he said they replaced the carb and distributor too. He did not elaborate as to how else they came to their conclusion other than he said there was a varnishy smell.

The fuel was not partly fresh, it was completely fresh. I used the fuel that was left from Winter storage (about 6 months old) during an early Summer trip to Citifield to go to a Met game. I returned from that trip nearly empty and changed out the filters after I had filled her up. All of this was before the engine spun a bearing, in fact, it spun the bearing on the way into the harbor from that trip which necessitated the replacement of that motor with the DaddyO's motor. With the new motor and fresh (stabilized fuel), I proceeded to Block Island and re-fueled yet again on the way home in New London, CT. It was just a week or so after returning that I realized there was a bigger problem as the inabilty to idle got so bad that when I put it in gear, the engine was lugging.

So while it has been about 2 or three years since the professional tank cleaning, it's run through at least 6 tanks of fuel since then. The tank holds about 240 gallons, so it's gone through well over a thousand of gallons of fresh fuel since the cleaning.

I'm not looking to give these guys a bad wrap or anything, I'm just looking for more answers or hypothesis as what they've told me doesn't necessarily past the smell test (no pun intended). I value the experience and opinions of those in this community and am hoping to avoid the replacement of my fuel or worse, fuel tank if it may not be necessary.

Thanks!
 
Must repeat, a very small % of a company's customers may be very displeased, but of those, a very high % are likely to post negative reviews. Based on the reviews, this outfit's doing way more for you than they have for many others. Take this as a compliment: You have also been very polite in this discussion and willing to hear the other side. There simply ARE some customers who don't want to budge an inch, that really cannot be pleased.

You've put enough fuel through that system, and changed enough filters, I doubt your tank needs work again. Unless maybe it's fiberglass, but you haven't had trouble with the other engine.

Unless they also do automotive too, shouldn't be non-USCG parts within their walls. GOD Bless the USCG and Auxiliary! Truth in Advertising: I joined USCG a little over 50 years ago, summer of 1966, and have served since, Active, Reserve, Auxiliary. We warn people about automotive parts all the time! It's a shame a $50 automotive alternator + $3 in spark screening makes a $200 marine alternator, but there are differences in fuel, ignition, and electrical systems.

While we're on the subject, what kind of Fuel Pump is on this thing?
 
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