Starboard Engine Fail again.........

D

dwarren

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Not sure what happened but took boat out for "slow cruise" to just work everything in. I don't normally plane on this trip, just let it run up to temp for a half hour or so and make sure oil, coolant etc are good to go.

Got all the way to destination with no real issues. Hung out for an hour and decided to head back.

Starboard engine (1996 Crusader 350CID FWC) decided to stall. Would not start whole way back. Had to go super slow as I have dripless couplers and couldn't stop prop from turning a little. Sprayed a little starter fluid into injectors and it fired so I figured fuel issue somewhere.....

Back in canal, I try one more time and after a few sputters, it starts right up.....ran fine (other than both engines alternator belts squeal like crazy lately).

Vapor lock? Gremlins? Dirty injectors or possibly something electronic?

Started and stopped several times with no repeat.....

Thoughts?
 
Possible vent restriction? If it happens again try opening the fill cap.

This is a TBI EFI? When unsuccessfully trying to start, did you try advancing throttles all the way to turn off the injectors in case the plugs were loaded up after all that time at low rpm ( particularly if a MAP, IAC or other sensor was encouraging mix to be richer than it needed to be) ? Flooded engines start with ether because it's already in mostly vapor form. It may have been better to get on plane with higher rpms soon after initial warmup for a few minutes.

If you have drainable filters , it might be good to take a small fuel sample to view and sniff to see if it is "very fresh" and no sign of water or separation.

Any net loss of coolant from the reservoirs , or excess exhaust steam on that side, or any fuel sheen in the idle wake?

I'd also check the condition of the electrodes inside the dist cap. If they are poor that could lead to wet plugs .

It may be a bit dependent on trans. mfgr , but at least Velvet Drive has told me there would be no issue free-wheeling up to ~~10 kts or so . I have no steering control at that speed with 1 engine down anyway, but have had no problems free-wheeling at 6-7 kts for substantial distance when necessary. IMO this is much better than attempting to lock down the shaft and creating a heck of a lot more drag on the down side.
 
Listen to Sandy. He's good and he's adamant.

Listen to Sandy. He's good and he's adamant.

Listen to Sandy. He's good and he's adamant.

Listen to Sandy. He's good and he's adamant.

Sorry bro.....Couldn't resist! :D
 
Sandy......that's all great stuff.

EFI, yes, separate tanks. I did have this happen once before when changing the water/sep filter. Very strange. Where would I vent?

No strange exhaust or loss of coolant. Oil is pristine so no issues there. Odd thing is that a spritz of starting fluid I got a quick start but wouldn't stick. Not too familiar with EFI so don't really know where to check.
 
"Where would I vent?"

Each fuel tank requires a vent. This allows expansion/contraction of contents as well as allowing air in/out during use/filling.

Where might the vent be? Each installation is fairly unique, however should be easy enough tpo find. The vent will run from the top of the fuel tank to a small fitting on the outside. This is typically a "clamshell" type fitting, often with a screen covering the opening. Wasps and mud dawbers are notorious for pasting the screen shut with mud, as well as getting into the tube ( if no screen present ) then plugging the tube with mud.

Blockage is fairly common. The symptoms are: Engine runs for a while, creating a vacuum inside of the tank. When vacuum is too great, the engine will no longer be able to suck fuel from tank, so a running engine stalls. Frequently, waiting "a while" will allow air to pass by an imperfect seal, so after a longish wait, engine may restart, only to fail again as cycle repeats.

The test above ( "open fuel fill cap" ) is an effective test. It should release the vacuum and a.llow operation. You may also notice the air inrush as you open the cap.

Needs to be corrected, obviously.
 
Mud wasps often fill the tank vents. They are often on the side of the boat and are where fuel would spill if over filled.
 
There are several types of vents.

Google boat fuel vent and see which is on your boat.
 
Ahh...no I know about the tank vent, I thought there was actually something specific to an EFI type configuration where there was some kind of "pressure" valve that I could check during this condition. Vents are good to go on the tank, no water in fuel and injectors, on visual inspection look good. Boat started no issues last night.........
 
there may be a Schrader valve on the FI system. Press it to see if there is fuel pressure. Fuel will squirt out so great care is needed to not start a fire. Just because something squirts out does not mean it is good fuel. The filter contents will tell you that.

Electric fuel pump?? Does it run with key on?
Cant hurt to clean the multi pin connector if you have one.
 
Only cuz you mentioned it, You have an alternator foe each engine?

The more electrical load, the alternator builds more resistance to turning. Both alternators squeeling sounded fishy. Geo(GVP) woulda been able to explain this stuff, being an electrical wizard.

I don't know the connection but Geo coulda helped.

Oh, and checking condition of the plugs is a great diagnostic tool. Whether you find wet plugs, black plugs or just dry plugs, they all tell you what's going on in the combustion chamber.
 
If your tank has an anti-siphon valve, check that as well. You can run an auxiliary tank to bypass the internal tank and see if that eliminates your problem. Good luck and let us know what you find.
 
quote:
Originally posted by KiDa

Listen to Sandy. He's good and he's adamant.

Listen to Sandy. He's good and he's adamant.

Listen to Sandy. He's good and he's adamant.

Listen to Sandy. He's good and he's adamant.

Sorry bro.....Couldn't resist! :D

Click to expand...


Sorry David. Every time I noticed the repeat post I'd delete.... and another one would grow out!
 
Will it start cold, or hot, or not at all?

How is gas furnished to the injectors? If it has a pressure regulator that fails "open" the fuel can be returned to the source without flowing through the injectors. Our MerC uses a Vapor Separator Tank (VST). A low pressure mechanical pump (camshaft driven old fashioned kind) fills VST through a float valve like a carburetor has. Then a filter screen into the high-pressure electric pump. It'd stall after a warm engine re-start. Mechanic replaced expensive high pressure pump but it turned out to be the cheap low pressure pump. When warm, the LP pump couldn't fill the VST. Newer engines and other brands may not have this VST/pump setup.

An ignition coil can fail "hot" also, and let the engine start cold.

Our MerC often loads up on hot start and the throttle had to be opened in neutral to clear it out while I crank it. I suppose that if that feature failed a certain way, engine would never get fuel, but I haven't seen or heard of that happening.
 
squealing means that the alternators are more heavily loaded than usual and the belts may be a little loose. After a lot of cranking the battery would be discharged and therefore more heavily loading the alternator. What this would affect the other engine I don't know unless thy use the same battery.
This could simply be that the batts need some time to charge up after sitting for a long winter.
 
squealing means that the alternators are more heavily loaded than usual and the belts may be a little loose. After a lot of cranking the battery would be discharged and therefore more heavily loading the alternator. What this would affect the other engine I don't know unless thy use the same battery.
This could simply be that the batts need some time to charge up after sitting for a long winter.
 
Happened again....no issues the whole day, boat ran strong for couple hours. Cruised slow for a bit then opened her up. No issues.....went to dock for an hour. Started both engines, both started, then starboard stalled....I can hear the electronic fuel pump kicking in. When I spray some ether in the injectors, the boat putters so it's not spark related. I just don't see it being a blockage if it ran fine all day just to stall after sitting hot for an hour.

anyone have any ideas where tos tart? I'm not totally familiar with EFI. I believe I have the mechanical fuel pump as well as some other sort of pump between that and the water sep.

I'm pretty confused...
 
Did you ever check spark plugs for possible water contamination. How fast were you going when stall? Slow/idle RPM can allow water reversion that can suck water from exhaust. This can happen cuz of cam overlap. At the top of the exhaust stroke and the beginning of the intake stroke, both the intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time. For a split second, the intake stroke is sucking hard and can pull from the exhaust and water exiting from the end of the riser.
 
By all means, check the plugs. They may tell you something nasty is going on. Hopefully not. How do your starters mount On the I/O's, the mounting bolts go into the block vertically. If water gets into the cylinders, not enough to hydrolock, cranking can be balky and the strain of a little water trying to "compress" can stretch the mounting bolts. This makes them appear to have loosened. With mounting bolts parallel to the crankshaft, I don't now if inboards would display that tendency.

Remember, our weak mechanical pump could fill the VST when the system was cold, or had cooled for an hour. It was in that in-between time that the VST didnt' get filled. Engine either would not start or would start and run out of gas in a couple minutes.

Trying to describe a VST...Smaller than a breadbox...
mplyHReQQj84HBFIJ3jHFaw.jpg


Maybe 6" wide and 6" deep, 2-3" thick, fuel line in and out, electrical connections... On our 5.7, it's on the starboard front of the engine mounted high. Straight down is the mechanical fuel pump.

$(KGrHqJ,!lQFJhgC-7ufBSYscTzbt!~~60_35.GIF

You'd be looking down onto the round top of the pump, and the arm on the upper right wouldn't be showing since it's inside the engine block.

I wonder if switching either VST's or Fuel Pumps would get the problem to follow the bad part? If you decide to swap or replace a mechanical fuel pump, let is know and somebody'll offer some tips. Chevy V6 and V8 engines use a pushrod to operate that arm and you have to keep it from sliding out.
 
Doug,
Make sure you have good spark! I had a intermittent problem for two years like this and it turned out to be the ECM. You need to scan the engine it could be as simple as a sensor but plugging it it is the way to go. Good luck and keep us posted.
Rob
 
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