My first run in with police on the water!
- Thread starter CurrentSea
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So he took my driver's license and boat registration. Boat is documented but I still have a reggie.
The document they asked for on the first time in court was my driver's license abstract which is my CAR driving record and was clean as a whistle. No reckless car driving which is what I think they were looking for.
Will this end next time? Yes, because if it doesn't I will go after the DA and tell him I complied with 2 of his demands and accuse him of wasting taxpayer's dollars and that will be on the record. I will then ask the judge to rule, something they hate to do, but since the judge seems to be in my favor, I think it will be a good path!
As for lost wages, no, I have lost a total of about 6 hours from work, no big deal, I am salaried and bill enough overtime hours that its no big deal. Though for someone else that may be different.
To me this experience shows me our court systems is messed up. If noone understands navigation law, then why do we have police officers on the water? There should be a maritime court held say 4 times a year to review cases like this. Moving them to regular court system where the DA who represents the people admits in court he does not know navigational law is a joke!
The document they asked for on the first time in court was my driver's license abstract which is my CAR driving record and was clean as a whistle. No reckless car driving which is what I think they were looking for.
Will this end next time? Yes, because if it doesn't I will go after the DA and tell him I complied with 2 of his demands and accuse him of wasting taxpayer's dollars and that will be on the record. I will then ask the judge to rule, something they hate to do, but since the judge seems to be in my favor, I think it will be a good path!
As for lost wages, no, I have lost a total of about 6 hours from work, no big deal, I am salaried and bill enough overtime hours that its no big deal. Though for someone else that may be different.
To me this experience shows me our court systems is messed up. If noone understands navigation law, then why do we have police officers on the water? There should be a maritime court held say 4 times a year to review cases like this. Moving them to regular court system where the DA who represents the people admits in court he does not know navigational law is a joke!
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I doubt he was bragging about his incompetence, bullying, unlawful detention, theft of personal property under color of law, and compelling the operator of a vessel to operate it in an unlawful manner while he was being so detained.
So, you need to carry your driver's license while boating i New York? Something wrong here. Don't understand what a driver's license has to do with operating a boat. I'm thinking nothing. I don't know of any law that requires you to carry it while boating. Do you carry your license when you're on a jet ski? I never did.
I can't think of a law or even a round about law of having to carry ID to prove who you are unless driving a car. The one caveat to that is if you do break a minor law, say drinking in public and you have no ID on you, they can take you away in handcuffs until ID can be presented or verified.
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I’m not aware of any law that requires it. That said - when I am on the other side of the situation, I always ask for drivers license or photo ID. Saves a lot of time and aggravation to just copy name and address from it than to copy it down from verbal, spell it wrong, ask them to repeat it again more slowly, ask if that’s an M or an N, et cetera. I want that boarding completed as efficiently as possible, too. An inspection should NEVER be extended any longer than is reasonably necessary to complete the legitimate inspection. As a training issue, I extend that to include any longer than is ACTUALLY necessary. The majority of recreational boat boardings should be complete before the other officer can even finish filling out the form.
Using Florida as an example, we're required to have a Boater Card if born after 1988. So a 50-YOA doesn't have to have a card. But some 50's look like 28's. Only way LEO can tell if operation is legal is to require an official photo ID card with DOB. Like a DL. And, Boater Cards don't bear photos. We're required to furnish DOB with Boater Card, so LEO can match DOB on DL with DOB on Boater Card to confirm that somebody has not borrowed somebody else's Boater Card.
I've been biting my tongue (well, actually my typing fingers...) since this thread opened. No more. In the absence of more information, LEO was being a jerk and should have left Dave and his flotilla alone. Then the gov't agencies circled their wagons instead of admitting wrong by backing down.
Now about the On Line Boating Class. When Required, and Taken, to simply get some "ticket punched", on line courses are a CROCK. Let me give you an example. If I'm a medical or food service person, and my work is subject to inspection which will be reflected in my personnel evaluations... THEN I will be very diligent in my study of the on line Mandatory Influenza Prevention Course. My Certificate of Completion will mean something. But... That's not the case. I'm a work-from-home customer support tech. Company wants 100% participation in Influenza Training, probably on some executive's bonus plan. I'll do the course, all right. How fast? With what GOAL? What will I remember? Will I apply one bit of it? Now enter the teenagers wanting to drive their family jetskis... Boater Card Party! Sit around the laptop, figure out the answers, log on as each other, page through to the test, pay their $10, Done. Giant Step for Boating Safety.
We NEED worthwhile Boating Education. The BE crowd has boating figured out. The novices have not. In the USA, only Puerto Rico has it right: Twenty Hours Classroom. Perfect? No. But we expect the driver of that oncoming bus to know what a Stop sign means. Same on the water.
I doubt a "Dave" will learn anything new from the Boat/US, but in his position that's exactly what I'd do. However I can say is this: A good classroom program can actually teach. In a one day class for a prestige yachting community, we started hearing "I didn't know that." "I'll have to look into that." "I need to fix that." Same with the licensed tugboat captains at a major marine construction company. Price isn't the issue. It's giving up one whole day.
I've been biting my tongue (well, actually my typing fingers...) since this thread opened. No more. In the absence of more information, LEO was being a jerk and should have left Dave and his flotilla alone. Then the gov't agencies circled their wagons instead of admitting wrong by backing down.
Now about the On Line Boating Class. When Required, and Taken, to simply get some "ticket punched", on line courses are a CROCK. Let me give you an example. If I'm a medical or food service person, and my work is subject to inspection which will be reflected in my personnel evaluations... THEN I will be very diligent in my study of the on line Mandatory Influenza Prevention Course. My Certificate of Completion will mean something. But... That's not the case. I'm a work-from-home customer support tech. Company wants 100% participation in Influenza Training, probably on some executive's bonus plan. I'll do the course, all right. How fast? With what GOAL? What will I remember? Will I apply one bit of it? Now enter the teenagers wanting to drive their family jetskis... Boater Card Party! Sit around the laptop, figure out the answers, log on as each other, page through to the test, pay their $10, Done. Giant Step for Boating Safety.
We NEED worthwhile Boating Education. The BE crowd has boating figured out. The novices have not. In the USA, only Puerto Rico has it right: Twenty Hours Classroom. Perfect? No. But we expect the driver of that oncoming bus to know what a Stop sign means. Same on the water.
I doubt a "Dave" will learn anything new from the Boat/US, but in his position that's exactly what I'd do. However I can say is this: A good classroom program can actually teach. In a one day class for a prestige yachting community, we started hearing "I didn't know that." "I'll have to look into that." "I need to fix that." Same with the licensed tugboat captains at a major marine construction company. Price isn't the issue. It's giving up one whole day.
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Well I passed my course and get my boating certificate.
I did manage to get 2 wrong.
I don't recall the 2 I got wrong but they were pretty dumb questions with redundant possible answers.
I just hope this is the end of this situation and I won't know until I return to court 1/26. I will update this then.
Again, in my view I have learned 1 thing. When a LEO has his lights on and is on a perpendicular path to me, I am stopping and turning to make sure he isn't confused by my intentions!
I did manage to get 2 wrong.
I don't recall the 2 I got wrong but they were pretty dumb questions with redundant possible answers.
I just hope this is the end of this situation and I won't know until I return to court 1/26. I will update this then.
Again, in my view I have learned 1 thing. When a LEO has his lights on and is on a perpendicular path to me, I am stopping and turning to make sure he isn't confused by my intentions!
Tough way to learn a lesson.
From your point of view the summoning Officer could have handled it differently. Perhaps so, NYS allows LEO’s discretion with regards to violations. It’s their call in the end though.
From my perspective and your description of events I can sort of see both sides of it.
You’re an experienced boater who didn’t know the procedure. On the other hand, had you known it, you still would have had a tough time making the turn in the narrow channel surrounded by shallow water.
While I have no experience with emergency response on the water, I have a ton of it on land and can say that it is extremely frustrating and dangerous when you have the lights and siren going and someone doesn’t yield properly.
He was within his rights to “hold on to” your license until he returned from transporting the injured person.
While you aren’t required to carry the driver license while operating a boat, you are required to present proper ID when being issued a summons. Generally the license is used as proper ID. If you don’t have proper ID the LEO has the option to take you in to custody for the violation because summonses are issued in lieu of arrest. That prevents someone without ID from giving their brother’s pedigree info.
The most troubling part of your story for me is the inexperience of the DA prosecuting violations issued on the water in a jurisdiction surrounded by it where thousands of boats are operated on summer weekends.
I think that kind of indicates a lack of emphasis on proper enforcement.
From your point of view the summoning Officer could have handled it differently. Perhaps so, NYS allows LEO’s discretion with regards to violations. It’s their call in the end though.
From my perspective and your description of events I can sort of see both sides of it.
You’re an experienced boater who didn’t know the procedure. On the other hand, had you known it, you still would have had a tough time making the turn in the narrow channel surrounded by shallow water.
While I have no experience with emergency response on the water, I have a ton of it on land and can say that it is extremely frustrating and dangerous when you have the lights and siren going and someone doesn’t yield properly.
He was within his rights to “hold on to” your license until he returned from transporting the injured person.
While you aren’t required to carry the driver license while operating a boat, you are required to present proper ID when being issued a summons. Generally the license is used as proper ID. If you don’t have proper ID the LEO has the option to take you in to custody for the violation because summonses are issued in lieu of arrest. That prevents someone without ID from giving their brother’s pedigree info.
The most troubling part of your story for me is the inexperience of the DA prosecuting violations issued on the water in a jurisdiction surrounded by it where thousands of boats are operated on summer weekends.
I think that kind of indicates a lack of emphasis on proper enforcement.
Generally, LEO’s in NYS fill out and sign the back of the first page of the multi part summons and it serves as an affidavit. If there is reason for the officer to provide further testimony, most jurisdictions give them a chance to respond to a notification to appear.
Honestly, the best advice to give anyone in this situation is to hire a lawyer and let that lawyer do all the talking in court.
People minimize traffic court and similar appearances.
But no matter how minor a matter may appear to be, the old adage that “someone who represents himself has a fool for a Lawyer” holds true more often than not.
I understand that there are jurisdictions in NYS where they will allow a motor vehicle operator to “plea bargain” in violation cases. I’m told that it is common place in the suburban County I currently live in.
I can say that although it was a very long time ago, I made my fair share of appearances in traffic courts in NYC where, unlike criminal court, they do not plea bargain violations and I never saw a motorist win without a Lawyer.
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Absolutely. The cop is the state's witness and if he's not there, I would have moved for dismissal...
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I want to clarify that I asked for it to be dismissed but that was ignored.
I am sure if I had an attorney it would of been.
No issue.
I will return with my certificate of boating safety and be proud and hope they dismiss!
I am sure if I had an attorney it would of been.
No issue.
I will return with my certificate of boating safety and be proud and hope they dismiss!
The court doesn’t necessarily have to dismiss it because the Officer wasn’t there because he outlined the details on, and signed the back of the top copy (original) of the summons. You don’t see that copy because it’s forwarded to the court. That’s how the court knows what the Officer said you did. If necessary, the court will put in a notification for the Officer to appear.
Different jurisdictions give the Officer X amount of “no shows” before they will dismiss. The nature of Police work is such that sometimes more pressing matters arise that will cause an Officer to miss a court date.
Not sure that it would have been dismissed if you had a Lawyer with you and his argument for dismissal was simply that the Officer wasn’t in court. It may have been if the Judge felt sorry for you and didn’t want to see you pay a Lawyer for multiple appearances, but there is no guarantees.
Honestly though, I would have still hired a Lawyer that specializes in traffic type stuff (unlikely you’ll find one that specializes in boat operation violations). They know the system a lot better than you do and will usually get you a better outcome than you can get on your own. That’s why I generally recommend that folks in similar positions as you spend the money on a Lawyer rather than risk saying something stupid in court due to your inexperience. The money you’ll pay may well be more than made up in a lesser fine and avoiding increased insurance premiums over time.
What you probably don’t want though is a Lawyer that specializes in other matters because he likely doesn’t know that system any better than you do. Many of my clients after I retired from the PD were Lawyers and what I quickly learned when dealing with them is that, like many Doctors these days, they are generally only expert in the specific specialty they practice. You don’t want your divorce Lawyer representing you in a personal injury suit or vice vers, no more than you want an orthopedic surgeon doing a heart bypass on you.
What you definitely don’t want to do is to take legal advice from people who aren’t Lawyers despite how many they are related to or know, the number of times they’ve been through the legal system, or the amount of time they’ve spent watching Lawyer or Cop shows on TV.
Those of us in the Law Enforcement Community and the scores of Lawyers I’ve dealt with over the years that are/were involved in the Justice System overwhelmingly refer to those “legal experts” as either “Jailhouse Lawyers” or more often as “$hithouse Lawyers”.
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I'm the opposite - I have little experience with the land side, but a ton of experience with maritime L/E. Both individually and as an Instructor. I can tell you that the 1972 International Regulations for the Prevention of Collision at Sea, and the Inland Navigation Rules which largely incorporate them by reference, make absolutely no special provision for a law enforcement vessel aside from stating that a flashing blue light identifies a law enforcement vessel. There is NOTHING within that indicates a vessel must take any particular action when sighting such lights at any range, but there is plenty indicating the proper conduct of vessels in all other situations. It really is a whole different world than 'street' L/E - the very nature of operating a boat is a world apart from operating a M/V.
First indication I had the officer in this anecdote is VERY boot and clueless - he was using his blues for a SAR case. I VERY seldom use them (and train the same) because you know what the 99% reaction is when a boater sees them? They come to all stop right in the middle of the damned channel. They completely lose their situational awareness, ignore all other traffic, don't think about the impact or interruption to traffic, their obligations undertake rules, regulations, and customs of mariners. They foul up the world around them in whatever waterway it is, and almost ALWAYS cause the opposite effect. You want people out of your way? Blip the siren, stick an arm out the pilothouse window and wave them away, call them on the VHF, but unless you need to build your narrative for someone refusing to heave to, don't EVER use blue lights if you want someone OUT of your way. Dollar to a dime this guy has ZERO training in MLE and got himself assigned to a boat assuming 'street' L/E and MLE must be same same.
The next is seizing property, detaining the operator, and inducing him to operate in violation of federal regulations for what boils down to perceived contempt of cop. (It does. We can probably all agree on that) And doing so while delaying transport of a patient that was deemed urgent enough to cause this interaction in the first place. Which is it? PT was so urgent you had no time to spare to obey the law while charged with enforcing it, or patient was so unimportant you had time to go off the reservation and do all of the above - in which case, how on EARTH is the violation justified?