My first run in with police on the water!

<<..."And doing so while delaying transport of a patient that was deemed urgent enough to cause this interaction in the first place. Which is it? PT was so urgent you had no time to spare to obey the law while charged with enforcing it, or patient was so unimportant you had time to go off the reservation and do all of the above - in which case, how on EARTH is the violation justified?"....>>

Bingo. That's the summary of it. That cop is a power hungry jackass. The patient either needed immediate attention, or he didn't. Either way, the cop acted like an ass.
 
To be honest. The injured patient on the boat was written on the ticket as his reason for traveling so fast that he wrote on the ticket.
But both myself and the Admiral saw noone else on the boat but him and his driver. It was one of those inflatable with an aluminum cabin. You see the coast guard using them. We could see inside.

So its possible there was no patient. Maybe they were racing to get lunch. Maybe they were just f'ing around. I don't know.
I do know, my ticket said he was racing to bring a injured passenger to an awaiting ambulance on the mainland.
 
This is all BS and if I were you, I'd be very, very upset!

Maybe he was on the way to get the patient and drop off elsewhere?
 
I was upset when it first happened.
Now its comical. I don't sweat the petty things!

The ticket states they had a injured passenger who was heading to an awaiting ambulance.
No disputing that.
For all I know the cop who is pissed off was the injured patient.
I assume they needed a reason to be racing across the bay with lights on, so they had to write something.
 
quote:
Originally posted by GeeBee

Yeah, the officer does not have to be there. This Sixth Amendment is highly over rated IMHO.

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Not true at all. If the cop doesn't show, demand that the ticket be dismissed. They cannot prosecute the case based on a the ticket, the cop MUST testify and be subject to cross examination.
 
quote:
Originally posted by GeeBee

Yeah, the officer does not have to be there. This Sixth Amendment is highly over rated IMHO.

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Doesn’t apply here yet.
This is why I recommend that people in these situations get a Lawyer rather than taking legal advice from people who think they understand every aspect of the law and court procedure because they read the constitution.
The proceedings he has appeared for are hearings not a trial. The overwhelming majority of violation offenses in this State are resolved at hearings. He has the right to counsel at these hearings, and I strongly suggest that people in these situations avail themselves of that counsel, but most don’t. Relying instead on what they think they know about the law, or advice that laymen have given them. That’s why the overwhelming majority of them are found guilty.
Should he demand a trial by jury he can have it in accordance with the 6th amendment and he’ll absolutely have the right to be represented by counsel, face his accuser, present witnesses, etc..
That might be kind of crazy though.
Should he demand a trial for this incident to make a point it would be a real roll of the dice and will likely not go well for him if he loses.
Again, I’m not a Lawyer, but I have testified in my fair share of criminal and traffic cases over a 25 year career in Law Enforcement, and continued involvement during the next 12 years as a Private Investigator and my overall assessment of Judges is that they are not necessarily sympathetic to people who they feel may be wasting the courts time and resources.
Had he hired a Lawyer who takes care of traffic and other violations from the beginning I suspect that this matter would have been resolved and put behind him after his first appearance and would have been cheaper in the long run.
 
quote:
Originally posted by November Charlie

quote:
Originally posted by JVM225

While I have no experience with emergency response on the water, I have a ton of it on land and can say that it is extremely frustrating and dangerous when you have the lights and siren going and someone doesn’t yield properly.

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I'm the opposite - I have little experience with the land side, but a ton of experience with maritime L/E. Both individually and as an Instructor. I can tell you that the 1972 International Regulations for the Prevention of Collision at Sea, and the Inland Navigation Rules which largely incorporate them by reference, make absolutely no special provision for a law enforcement vessel aside from stating that a flashing blue light identifies a law enforcement vessel. There is NOTHING within that indicates a vessel must take any particular action when sighting such lights at any range, but there is plenty indicating the proper conduct of vessels in all other situations. It really is a whole different world than 'street' L/E - the very nature of operating a boat is a world apart from operating a M/V.

First indication I had the officer in this anecdote is VERY boot and clueless - he was using his blues for a SAR case. I VERY seldom use them (and train the same) because you know what the 99% reaction is when a boater sees them? They come to all stop right in the middle of the damned channel. They completely lose their situational awareness, ignore all other traffic, don't think about the impact or interruption to traffic, their obligations undertake rules, regulations, and customs of mariners. They foul up the world around them in whatever waterway it is, and almost ALWAYS cause the opposite effect. You want people out of your way? Blip the siren, stick an arm out the pilothouse window and wave them away, call them on the VHF, but unless you need to build your narrative for someone refusing to heave to, don't EVER use blue lights if you want someone OUT of your way. Dollar to a dime this guy has ZERO training in MLE and got himself assigned to a boat assuming 'street' L/E and MLE must be same same.

The next is seizing property, detaining the operator, and inducing him to operate in violation of federal regulations for what boils down to perceived contempt of cop. (It does. We can probably all agree on that) And doing so while delaying transport of a patient that was deemed urgent enough to cause this interaction in the first place. Which is it? PT was so urgent you had no time to spare to obey the law while charged with enforcing it, or patient was so unimportant you had time to go off the reservation and do all of the above - in which case, how on EARTH is the violation justified?

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You’re questioning the Officer’s tactics and procedure based on a fact pattern as relayed to you by one side and I think that based on your experience you are correct to do so.
I think Dave also has the right to do so, and there are likely avenues for him to pursue that through the Officer’s Department if he chooses.
My extensive experience in investigating not only criminal cases, but a wide spectrum of matters involving Police Officers actions, conduct, and compliance with procedures at a supervisory, and later command, level has taught me to never come to a conclusion without hearing both sides and examining the evidence so I’ll reserve judgement and not second guess the Officer or Dave.
That doesn’t change whether on land, in the air, or out on the water.
 
As a lawyer for over 30 years, and a former prosecutor, you cannot be convicted by the court or a jury without the testimony of the accuser.

Yes, you can plea bargain, and plead guilty without the cop appearing, but if you demand a trial and he doesn't show, the case gets dismissed.

Dave has said that it's not worth his time/money to fight it any more. He should ask for a dismissal based on taking the course, or at the least, ask for an Adjournment in Contemplation of Dismissal (ACD) - the court adjourns the case for 6 months, and so long as he doesn't get in any other trouble, the case automatically gets dismissed.
 
My experience. I received a ticket for not having a valid NY drivers license on Long Island. I had moved to CT, turned in my NY license, had a valid CT license....however, I had a speeding ticket from 10yrs prior that I didn't address (asked for trial, never heard back, etc). So, technically my right to drive in NY was revoked (weird but I get it).

I cleared up the speeding ticket, paid it 10 years later, the original officer wasn't there. But another officer represented him, we plead it down, all good. He did say if I wanted, we can schedule a trial, I chose not to.

Went to LI, the officer didn't show up, I thought I was golden since the officer was not there. NOPE, the DA said this is a pre-trial hearing. I'd have to come back if I want a real trial...considering the distance, I plead it down, paid and left.

Also, I once had a bad dealing with a hot-head officer. He wrote me 5 violations, one I was guilty of (expired registration) and was NASTY. I use a lawyer, requested the deposition, didn't get it. Lawyer sent me alone to the court date to ask for a dismissal. All 5 were dismissed even though the officer was there. HOWEVER, my attorney informed me they will dismiss the tickets but reserve the right to re-issue them...so don't be a jerk.

That's my experiences with this officer no-show business.
 
quote:
Originally posted by WALSHIE

My experience. I received a ticket for not having a valid NY drivers license on Long Island. I had moved to CT, turned in my NY license, had a valid CT license....however, I had a speeding ticket from 10yrs prior that I didn't address (asked for trial, never heard back, etc). So, technically my right to drive in NY was revoked (weird but I get it).

I cleared up the speeding ticket, paid it 10 years later, the original officer wasn't there. But another officer represented him, we plead it down, all good. He did say if I wanted, we can schedule a trial, I chose not to.

Went to LI, the officer didn't show up, I thought I was golden since the officer was not there. NOPE, the DA said this is a pre-trial hearing. I'd have to come back if I want a real trial...considering the distance, I plead it down, paid and left.

Also, I once had a bad dealing with a hot-head officer. He wrote me 5 violations, one I was guilty of (expired registration) and was NASTY. I use a lawyer, requested the deposition, didn't get it. Lawyer sent me alone to the court date to ask for a dismissal. All 5 were dismissed even though the officer was there. HOWEVER, my attorney informed me they will dismiss the tickets but reserve the right to re-issue them...so don't be a jerk.

That's my experiences with this officer no-show business.

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Exactly my point! Most of these type violations are adjudicated without a trial.
Personally, as an otherwise law abiding citizen, I would never ask for a trial for a minor violation offense. I think it’s just asking for trouble.
But to each his own.
However, I stand by my original advice in that in matters like these you are much better off paying a Lawyer who specializes in these things for an appearance. They know the system, prosecutors, and judges and have the best idea on how to present it so that you get the best possible outcome as quickly as possible.
Your better off standing by your Lawyers side with your mouth shut and being guided by his advice if a question is directed at you.
 
I disagree - Hiring an attorney would of cost me probably about $700
I am out nothing.
How do you figure that?
Lost wages - I think I said, I work more than 40 hours a week and I am salaried, so I lose nothing showing up.
 
quote:
Originally posted by Reel Antsy

quote:
Originally posted by Padraig

If the officer who charged you is not there.....ask the judge to dismiss charges.

Padraig

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Absolutely. The cop is the state's witness and if he's not there, I would have moved for dismissal...

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The cop only has to be there for a trial. If he doesn't show up for trial, the case can be dismissed
 
I went to fight a missing front license plate in court in Rosendale NY. The judge asked me if I wanted to spend a night in jail. He was a boozer. The whole court smelled of his sorry a$$. At least the fine was reduced to 5 bucks.
Hopefully you are more lucky!
 
Traffic Attorney costs 500 bucks to get rid of a summons. My daughter just got a speeding ticket, going way over the speed limit. We made the call to a traffic attorney and she didn't even have to show up in court. He took care of the whole thing and pled down to a parking violation. This was also in Suffolk County. She did have to pay a hefty fine but too be honest she deserved it.
 
quote:
Originally posted by CurrentSea

I disagree - Hiring an attorney would of cost me probably about $700
I am out nothing.
How do you figure that?
Lost wages - I think I said, I work more than 40 hours a week and I am salaried, so I lose nothing showing up.

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To each his own. That’s why Baskin Robbins offers 31 flavors.
I’d rather pay the $700 then make the minimum 3 appearances and spend the time taking a course I’d already taken, and take the chance of saying something that might sink me in court. Plus, after nearly 4 decades of exposure to the justice system the two things that I consider important are never get involved in it without being represented by a competent attorney who practices that kind of law, and most importantly, you have the right to remain silent and other than basic pedigree information you should always exercise that right if you are, or may be, the subject of any kind of enforcement action. Even just for summonses.
If taking the course is your only penalty, you could take the time to make the three appearances, and don’t mind doing so, then it works out for you and you saved $700. You were very lucky.
 
quote:
Originally posted by ALKA2710

Traffic Attorney costs 500 bucks to get rid of a summons. My daughter just got a speeding ticket, going way over the speed limit. We made the call to a traffic attorney and she didn't even have to show up in court. He took care of the whole thing and pled down to a parking violation. This was also in Suffolk County. She did have to pay a hefty fine but too be honest she deserved it.

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Money well spent! The increase in insurance alone for the next few years would easily wipe out the $500 and then some.
My daughter is 20 and my son is 17. Insurance is a killer.
A friend of my daughter since pre-school got pulled over a few months after he got his license for a lane change and headlight and wound up with 5 summonses for a variety of things that I can’t remember. Anyway, the parents are friends of ours.
He’s a great kid who swears he was humble when pulled over. Considering the number of summonses he got, that may or may not have been true. I wasn’t there so I don’t know.
They asked me what I thought they should do. I told them to hire a Lawyer. Someone else told them that they shouldn’t waste their money because the judge would see he’s just a kid and that the cop was picking on him and that’s why he got 5 tickets. I guess that made them feel better.
They let the kid go to court by himself. It didn’t go well in court and they won’t even discuss what happened with the insurance.
 
This whole thread is a good example why the NFL guys are taking a knee.
( However, I don’t agree with how they are protesting)
 
I think I will invest in Knee Pads.
Everyone is taking a knee these days.
NFL
Actresses
Interns
Politicians

Some take the knew in protest, some to get aHEAD at work and some to pray!
LOL
 
quote:
Originally posted by JVM225

quote:
Originally posted by CurrentSea

I disagree - Hiring an attorney would of cost me probably about $700
I am out nothing.
How do you figure that?
Lost wages - I think I said, I work more than 40 hours a week and I am salaried, so I lose nothing showing up.

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To each his own. That’s why Baskin Robbins offers 31 flavors.
I’d rather pay the $700 then make the minimum 3 appearances and spend the time taking a course I’d already taken, and take the chance of saying something that might sink me in court. Plus, after nearly 4 decades of exposure to the justice system the two things that I consider important are never get involved in it without being represented by a competent attorney who practices that kind of law, and most importantly, you have the right to remain silent and other than basic pedigree information you should always exercise that right if you are, or may be, the subject of any kind of enforcement action. Even just for summonses.
If taking the course is your only penalty, you could take the time to make the three appearances, and don’t mind doing so, then it works out for you and you saved $700. You were very lucky.

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OK, that gets my goat up! How was he very lucky? Dave did absolutely NOTHING WRONG!

When I had my 5 bogus summons dismissed the police officer asked me "do you have anything else you want to say"? I said yes, I have plenty but if you are expecting me to thank you for exonerating me on trumped up charges, you can hold your breath.

I have the ultimate respect for law enforcement, but there are some overly aggressive jerks. Luckily they are in the super minority.
 
Walshie,
Don't sweat it. Everyone reacts differently to things. Some people can't afford to miss 3 part days of work, so they would rather pay to make it go away. To me, If this was a ticket and not a summons, I would of just paid it and been done. But there was no way to pay. I had to show up.
Just having gone thru a divorce once where I paid my attorney thru the nose to do so little, I just am not a fan of attorneys. I am not one to pay to make it go away unless I want to fight it and I didn't want to fight it. Just happy to keep my boat to boat another day and nothing wrong with a little extra safety training. I also want my Captain's license someday, so just glad this won't affect that if dismissed!
 
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