US navy collision

The hierarchal inhibitions of the marine industry, in particular ship bridges continue to amaze me.
 
quote:
Originally posted by River Runner

From what I saw looking at the AIS, the crew on the bridge should have known the course and speed of the container ship and plotted the point of impact LONG before it occurred. As was stated before, the container ship does not as easily change speed and direction, which seems to show on the AIS plots to be the case. The OOD of the Fitzgerald should have known the vessels in his close proximity and their threat status, collision or otherwise. But this is just my armchair quarterback play calling here.

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Agreed - and they don't even need to (in terms of practicality, not policy) manually plot it. Modern nav radars will track for you and give you SOG, RBG, CPA, TCPA, etc, along with vectors on the PPI display.
 
quote:
Originally posted by GeeBee

The hierarchal inhibitions of the marine industry, in particular ship bridges continue to amaze me.

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I can't speak for the merchant side or even the big gray and big white side, but in my part of the profession I see a lot of irony in who buys into and who resists TCT/CRM/BRM/Whatever you want to call it. It was shamelessly plagiarized from the Aviation world because it is a GOOD idea. But you would think it's the old guys that resist - when IME, we're the ones that embrace it and it's the newer, younger guys that resist those principles.
 
quote:
Originally posted by GeeBee

The hierarchal inhibitions of the marine industry, in particular ship bridges continue to amaze me.
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This is NOT an excuse, a justification, but...

We've been on the water since Noah

We've been in the air about a century

Air had to learn about flattening the hierarchy, developing things like CRM. Events like the Tenerife disaster. Worst in aviation history and it happened On The Ground. Wiki:

"Crew resource management or cockpit resource management (CRM) is a set of training procedures for use in environments where human error can have devastating effects. Used primarily for improving air safety, CRM focuses on interpersonal communication, leadership, and decision making in the cockpit."

Modern aircraft don't fall out of the sky and modern ships don't run amok on the seas. Human Error is the root of the vast majority of mishaps. Mishap - Anything from a stubbed toe to loss of a vessel or aircraft and its crew...

USCG realized this and implemented Team Coordination Training/TCT in the 1990's, and has seen a dramatic drop in mishap rates. Same principles as CRM. A Crew is a Team, where Team success depends on everyone's contribution. Everybody has a voice and is not just entitled but expected to trap errors before they become the mistakes that lead to mishaps.

It's what aviation learned, written in blood. Just slower learners.
 
quote:
Originally posted by November Charlie

Agreed - and they don't even need to (in terms of practicality, not policy) manually plot it. Modern nav radars will track for you and give you SOG, RBG, CPA, TCPA, etc, along with vectors on the PPI display.

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To illustrate this, here is a picture I took a few months ago in the Gulf Stream approaching Miami at the time where cruise ships head out. The Furuno radar and plotter (a few year old model) shows the AIS data plus the heading line of each target. The radar can also track a number of non AIS target simply by clicking on the target. It obviously won't show the name and data but it will compute the speed, heading, CPA and show the projected heading line for these non AIS target

A single glance at the screen tells you right away which target may come a little too close

https://instagram.com/p/BMzoUQqj3pY/
 
Bridge crews should be better than flight deck crews because the same people work together every day while pilots flight deck folks are interchanged on every flight.
 
I think the Fits almost would have split in half had the collision been a bit more perpendicular
 
I tried to follow it but was turned off quickly by the frequent use of kph as a speed reference. There are supposed to be nautical experts bit dont know proper speed terminology. kph would be an acceleration
 
Land speed measure used at sea?? even more inappropriate.

Edit. Looking back i do see that they once reference Kts but still find it strange.
 
this article plays the AIS track on the Crystal - Capt claims he tried to warn the Fitz
 
IMHO, the Fitz eff'd up. Plain and simple. Time to suck it up and take actions. No excuses. Move on. Let the Navy come to terms with what let it happen and take corrective actions. Obviously heads will roll. Too bad. RIP to those that served and died in that service. They died needlessly. Shame on those that dropped the guard.
 
sure looks like they tried to hot rod in front of the freighter. I can't believe with all the equipment and watches that they did not know it was there
 
I don't know what they tried. All I know is that it did not work and that boat should have been able to dodge a tanker/freighter. I know I was not there, I know I did not walk the mile. But I do know that boat could have protected itself and its crew. I wish it was different.
 
quote:
Originally posted by boatbum

I don't know what they tried. All I know is that it did not work and that boat should have been able to dodge a tanker/freighter. I know I was not there, I know I did not walk the mile. But I do know that boat could have protected itself and its crew. I wish it was different.

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That can be said of ANY collision - doesn't matter who violated the COLREGS MORE than any other involved party - any vessel involved should have done things different and avoided being hit. It's not like motor vehicle insurance companies deciding who is at fault in a fender bender - if your vessel hits another, it is at fault. If your vessel is hit by another, you are at fault for allowing it to be hit. Rules are a bit different than they are on the highways.

All that aside, though, I'm biting my tongue and withholding any opinions on this incident out of respect for not only those 7 guys, but just as much for the men (or women, I don't know) that dogged zebra on those spaces knowing what it meant. That's some heavy stuff to live with, despite the indisputable fact they did the right thing.
 
quote:
Originally posted by November Charlie

quote:
Originally posted by boatbum

I don't know what they tried. All I know is that it did not work and that boat should have been able to dodge a tanker/freighter. I know I was not there, I know I did not walk the mile. But I do know that boat could have protected itself and its crew. I wish it was different.

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That can be said of ANY collision - doesn't matter who violated the COLREGS MORE than any other involved party - any vessel involved should have done things different and avoided being hit. It's not like motor vehicle insurance companies deciding who is at fault in a fender bender - if your vessel hits another, it is at fault. If your vessel is hit by another, you are at fault for allowing it to be hit. Rules are a bit different than they are on the highways.

All that aside, though, I'm biting my tongue and withholding any opinions on this incident out of respect for not only those 7 guys, but just as much for the men (or women, I don't know) that dogged zebra on those spaces knowing what it meant. That's some heavy stuff to live with, despite the indisputable fact they did the right thing.

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There is no argument or doubt that there were some very brave souls acting to save lives and keep the ship afloat.

I don't think I or we can imagine what it is like to wake up to massive amounts of water pouring into your quarters.
 
Crystal Capt said they made hard turn to starboard and collided 10 minutes later.
Could the Fitz think they could make it in front of Crystal (barely), but Crystal's starboard turn meant Fitz did not make it past?
Perhaps turn to port would have been better move, but he did not know Fitz intention
 
Colregs. 16 or 17 (not sure) : stand on vessel shall not turn to port
 
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